... And then they came for WFH

[easye]

It is not about remote work, it is about control.

Trust me, I work with a lot of executives/management types. That is always what it is about.

[maddocgrotsnik]

Of interest at my place of work?

We’re currently recruiting folks in the Manchester area, though our main offices are London, and Coventry.

Officially I’m in the office twice a week, but locally once.

Those being recruited for Manchester? Once every eight weeks, to an office in central manager.

Yep. That’s gonna be a tough sell at the next Pleb/Overlord meeting. Must bother my ICC member about this.

[herzlos]

They are certainly going to have a hard time justifying why you'd need to be in the office 16x more than the Manchester folk, unless you're doing stuff with different clearance levels?

[easye]

An interesting video about why execs want to kill WFH.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrsRvozsUQ8

It is not always what I thought, but Reason 4 really resonates with what I see around me from my peers.

[skyth]

Can you sum up?

[redchimera]

Jun 8, 2023 15:59:47 GMT -5 skyth said:

Can you sum up?

Well, it was "interesting" in the Chinese sense. It was a fucking awful to watch and is another piece of compelling evidence that backs up my theory that all vloggers should be boiled down so their body fat can be used to grease train wheels.


As usual, the video could be rendered to a few bullet points.

• Some companies use a 'return to the office' order with the expectation that a fair few workers will resign, reducing wages costs without the stigma of actively laying off staff.
• WFH means under utilized offices, probably over valued on the Balance Sheet, or locked into a long lease. Much better, it seems, to actually fill them up with workers
• Managers like to manage in person
• Seeing visible rewards for working longer hours (own office, PAs, etc.) incentivizes harder work at the office. (You have to be there to see other people that have earned those perks).

In other words, we've heard it all before.

[maddocgrotsnik]

Jun 7, 2023 16:12:33 GMT -5 herzlos said:

They are certainly going to have a hard time justifying why you'd need to be in the office 16x more than the Manchester folk, unless you're doing stuff with different clearance levels?

Same job title.

whilst I and my pod do do specifically higher level “I can do time if I fuck this up” stuff, we still have noobs, just happens to be what we look at.

[Haighus]

Jun 9, 2023 4:16:47 GMT -5 redchimera said:

-snip-
Seeing visible rewards for working longer hours (own office, PAs, etc.) incentivizes harder work at the office. (You have to be there to see other people that have earned those perks).
-snip-

This strikes me as likely to be utter bollocks, and probably something managers tell each other in manager training etc with little basis in reality.

I wonder if they have any evidence to back up the assertion that seeing someone else get a PA makes a worker more productive? I doubt it. Especially when that comes at the cost of another perk now- getting your own office isn't a great incentive when you were previously working in your own office at home.

[crispy78]

Yeah, I work for a global household name in the cosmetics industry. In our office of 500-odd employees there are precisely 2 PAs. Doesn't matter how fucking hard I work, I'm not getting one. And guess what? If I was working from home, I'd have my own office. If they think this shit works they are painfully deluded.

[maddocgrotsnik]

Jun 7, 2023 16:12:33 GMT -5 herzlos said:

They are certainly going to have a hard time justifying why you'd need to be in the office 16x more than the Manchester folk, unless you're doing stuff with different clearance levels?

Have raised the question with our employee council. They’ve been pretty effective so far. Hopefully we don’t run into the Sunk Cost Fallacy of “but we’ve leased the floors for a certain period of time”. Not my concern. Not my problem. My sole concern is hitting productivity and quality targets - which I have. Every year since we started remote working.

[herzlos]

Good luck! I'm guessing there's nothing in your contact about hours in office/at home for them to fall back on either.

Jun 9, 2023 7:09:15 GMT -5 crispy78 said:

Yeah, I work for a global household name in the cosmetics industry. In our office of 500-odd employees there are precisely 2 PAs. Doesn't matter how fucking hard I work, I'm not getting one. And guess what? If I was working from home, I'd have my own office. If they think this shit works they are painfully deluded.

Same. Presidents and CEO's get PA's and that's it. Private offices here are reserved for very senior managers, which I'll never be.

Of course, my office at home is still bigger than their office office, and has the added bonus of actually being quiet and right at my house.


I can sort of get the argument that seeing people work long hours encourages others to do the same, but of course there's no correlation between hours at a desk and productivity. There is a correlation between hours at work and unhappy home lives though.

I've become more mercenary with age - if you want me to work from the office, pay me well enough to live within a short walk to the office.

[easye]

Jun 9, 2023 6:00:45 GMT -5 Haighus said:

Jun 9, 2023 4:16:47 GMT -5 redchimera said:

-snip-
Seeing visible rewards for working longer hours (own office, PAs, etc.) incentivizes harder work at the office. (You have to be there to see other people that have earned those perks).
-snip-

This strikes me as likely to be utter bollocks, and probably something managers tell each other in manager training etc with little basis in reality.

I wonder if they have any evidence to back up the assertion that seeing someone else get a PA makes a worker more productive? I doubt it. Especially when that comes at the cost of another perk now- getting your own office isn't a great incentive when you were previously working in your own office at home.

Yeah, there actually is a pretty decent amount of literate on the subject (including science type literature) and it points to the fact that non-Monetary incentives like recognition, perks, and the like are more effective than cash.  

1. No one is supposed to talk about how much money they make in the office, so you can't use that as a status symbol with peers.  Plus, getting paid is an expectation not a reward. 

2. If you give someone a bunch of money, and ask them what they spent it on.  They don't know because so much just ends up getting siphoned off in day-to-day BS for existing.  If you give them access to an exclusive breakroom with a pool table, that creates a memory.  Put their picture on a wall?  Memory.  Memories are much more motivational than money. 

Case-in-point, my wife and I worked at the same place over two decades ago in a menial and entry level role.  Once, I got employee of the month and she did not.  To this day, 25 years later it still comes up from time-to-time. It is a strong memory for both of us. 

[Haighus]

There is plenty of evidence of the contrary- shorter hours are more productive.

Sustained long hours = sustained high productivity is a fallacy.

Edit- this is in reply to Herzlos.

[Haighus]

Jun 9, 2023 11:36:44 GMT -5 easye said:

Jun 9, 2023 6:00:45 GMT -5 Haighus said:

This strikes me as likely to be utter bollocks, and probably something managers tell each other in manager training etc with little basis in reality.

I wonder if they have any evidence to back up the assertion that seeing someone else get a PA makes a worker more productive? I doubt it. Especially when that comes at the cost of another perk now- getting your own office isn't a great incentive when you were previously working in your own office at home.

Yeah, there actually is a pretty decent amount of literate on the subject (including science type literature) and it points to the fact that non-Monetary incentives like recognition, perks, and the like are more effective than cash.  

1. No one is supposed to talk about how much money they make in the office, so you can't use that as a status symbol with peers.  Plus, getting paid is an expectation not a reward. 

2. If you give someone a bunch of money, and ask them what they spent it on.  They don't know because so much just ends up getting siphoned off in day-to-day BS for existing.  If you give them access to an exclusive breakroom with a pool table, that creates a memory.  Put their picture on a wall?  Memory.  Memories are much more motivational than money. 

Case-in-point, my wife and I worked at the same place over two decades ago in a menial and entry level role.  Once, I got employee of the month and she did not.  To this day, 25 years later it still comes up from time-to-time. It is a strong memory for both of us. 

Fair enough. I suppose the perk has to be meaningful though?

[crispy78]

Jun 9, 2023 9:52:56 GMT -5 herzlos said:

but of course there's no correlation between hours at a desk and productivity

Bingo! I was in the office all day today and literally did the square root of fuck all. About the most I did was receive a couple of video calls from a colleague while he tested the IT kit in the meeting rooms. But I successfully kept an office chair warm for the day, which apparently counts for something.