mdgv2
OT Cowboy
Posts: 487
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Post by mdgv2 on Jul 20, 2023 15:37:11 GMT -5
HBMC is now demanding to know why the woeful MAC and Me casting a disabled character with a disabled kid is to its credit…
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Haighus
Ye Olde King of OT
Posts: 901
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Post by Haighus on Jul 20, 2023 15:49:21 GMT -5
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Jul 20, 2023 17:22:06 GMT -5
HBMC is now demanding to know why the woeful MAC and Me casting a disabled character with a disabled kid is to its credit… Yeah, I saw his response to that and couldn’t not say anything. I wonder if he’s like that in real life, because wow.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Jul 20, 2023 17:31:26 GMT -5
GW kind of made their own bed there by turning the bloodiest, cruelest regime imaginable into the most relatable faction, and the tacticool posterboy power fantasy faction.
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Haighus
Ye Olde King of OT
Posts: 901
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Post by Haighus on Jul 20, 2023 17:34:35 GMT -5
GW kind of made their own bed there by turning the bloodiest, cruelest regime imaginable into the most relatable faction, and the tacticool posterboy power fantasy faction. I agree, I think the satire has largely left the setting these days due to GWs actions and the direction the lore has gone. It makes 40k as a setting particularly prone to Poe's law, and why there is such a large minority of folks like Arch in the community.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Jul 20, 2023 17:46:38 GMT -5
GW games have really become unpleasant for me. At first it was due to GW’s business tactics showing contempt for the game and the customer, but their making the community itself into a minefield helped give me that last little push out the door.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Jul 21, 2023 1:04:15 GMT -5
Even if GW is presenting it in universe as a good thing without sarcasm. Any person that can look at the Imperium genociding the carebears next door for being aliens and lobotomizing people left and right for servitors and think "well its morally grey" has some messed up values.
It sort of feels like a GW version of what we see in real history/education, we can appreciate the Soviets for beating the Nazis without losing sight of Soviet horrors.
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Post by Least censored on the planet! on Jul 21, 2023 4:04:21 GMT -5
HBMC is now demanding to know why the woeful MAC and Me casting a disabled character with a disabled kid is to its credit… Well there's a reason why I made "Not HBMC" my username on another forum, and why I had to add on my signature that if anyone mistakes me for that piece of shit I've done a terrible job. Any person that can look at the Imperium genociding the carebears That's the thing. GW doesn't show the Imperium genociding carebears anymore. Never has, really, but it used to be closer to that. Right now it's going to be "carebears don't have models". And of course carebears don't have model, they couldn't fight back the marines and got genocided. To take an example of something that was emphasized in earlier lore and that I haven't seen mentioned in ages: mutants aren't all touched by chaos. You can mutate for completely different reasons. But you'll be discriminated or outright murdered all the same, hence why they hide it and why they tend to fall to Chaos. Has any recent piece of fluff ever mentioned that?
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mdgv2
OT Cowboy
Posts: 487
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Post by mdgv2 on Jul 21, 2023 4:21:25 GMT -5
Necromunda does a decent job of it, explaining uprising and rebellion is par for the course, because conditions are so awful. Adding to the horror? It makes it clear that provided the time is paid in time, every time, The Imperium doesn’t especially care exactly how you achieved it. And so Planetary Governors can do more or less whatever they want, with really only paranoia of an Inquisitor finding out keeping them in check.
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Haighus
Ye Olde King of OT
Posts: 901
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Post by Haighus on Jul 21, 2023 4:25:47 GMT -5
HBMC is now demanding to know why the woeful MAC and Me casting a disabled character with a disabled kid is to its credit… Well there's a reason why I made "Not HBMC" my username on another forum, and why I had to add on my signature that if anyone mistakes me for that piece of shit I've done a terrible job. Any person that can look at the Imperium genociding the carebears That's the thing. GW doesn't show the Imperium genociding carebears anymore. Never has, really, but it used to be closer to that. Right now it's going to be "carebears don't have models". And of course carebears don't have model, they couldn't fight back the marines and got genocided. To take an example of something that was emphasized in earlier lore and that I haven't seen mentioned in ages: mutants aren't all touched by chaos. You can mutate for completely different reasons. But you'll be discriminated or outright murdered all the same, hence why they hide it and why they tend to fall to Chaos. Has any recent piece of fluff ever mentioned that? I don't know about recent stuff, but I think it is telling that in 4th edition, you could field non-Chaos mutant slaves in Imperial Guard armies, and now non-Chaos mutants are barely present. 40k is definitely becoming more and more problematic as time goes by.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Jul 21, 2023 5:30:28 GMT -5
Any person that can look at the Imperium genociding the carebears That's the thing. GW doesn't show the Imperium genociding carebears anymore. Never has, really, but it used to be closer to that. Right now it's going to be "carebears don't have models". And of course carebears don't have model, they couldn't fight back the marines and got genocided. To take an example of something that was emphasized in earlier lore and that I haven't seen mentioned in ages: mutants aren't all touched by chaos. You can mutate for completely different reasons. But you'll be discriminated or outright murdered all the same, hence why they hide it and why they tend to fall to Chaos. Has any recent piece of fluff ever mentioned that? But the pieces to that are still around in the fluff? The "suffer not the alien to live", the concept of the "stab in the back" myth that requires all aliens no matter how friendly to be wiped out. The fact that there are no human alternatives because the HH books showed the 'join us or die' approach of the Great Crusade wiping out other humans. The pieces are all still there. The veneer of plausible deniability is very thin when going into the fluff. As for the mutant fluff, has it changed much? Don't know what the 10th rulebook says fluff wise.
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Haighus
Ye Olde King of OT
Posts: 901
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Post by Haighus on Jul 21, 2023 5:55:03 GMT -5
That's the thing. GW doesn't show the Imperium genociding carebears anymore. Never has, really, but it used to be closer to that. Right now it's going to be "carebears don't have models". And of course carebears don't have model, they couldn't fight back the marines and got genocided. To take an example of something that was emphasized in earlier lore and that I haven't seen mentioned in ages: mutants aren't all touched by chaos. You can mutate for completely different reasons. But you'll be discriminated or outright murdered all the same, hence why they hide it and why they tend to fall to Chaos. Has any recent piece of fluff ever mentioned that? But the pieces to that are still around in the fluff? The "suffer not the alien to live", the concept of the "stab in the back" myth that requires all aliens no matter how friendly to be wiped out. The fact that there are no human alternatives because the HH books showed the 'join us or die' approach of the Great Crusade wiping out other humans. The pieces are all still there. The veneer of plausible deniability is very thin when going into the fluff. As for the mutant fluff, has it changed much? Don't know what the 10th rulebook says fluff wise. By and large, all that lore is still current, but has slipped into obscurity for the majority of newer players. Kinda makes it hard to sell Space Marines to 12 year olds otherwise, and profits are king for a PLC. This has coincided with an increasingly worrying trend to paint it as an in-lore fact that the Imperium's methods are necessary and the costs are justified for the outcome. The changes to blind faith being the biggest example- this now has widespread and tangible anti-Chaos benefits rather than being a hinderance to the overall functioning of the Imperium. All this stuff basically maps perfectly onto fascist propaganda, the sacrifices are necessary to survive death cult stuff. Thats what they sell to 12 year olds these days. There is a reason 40k has a fascist problem, and it basically boils down to 40k lore turning from fascist satire into fascist proganda in the name of corporate profits. I still enjoy the models and the old lore and the setting in general, but I am like Bob when it comes to newer stuff.
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Haighus
Ye Olde King of OT
Posts: 901
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Post by Haighus on Jul 21, 2023 5:56:54 GMT -5
Necromunda does a decent job of it, explaining uprising and rebellion is par for the course, because conditions are so awful. Adding to the horror? It makes it clear that provided the time is paid in time, every time, The Imperium doesn’t especially care exactly how you achieved it. And so Planetary Governors can do more or less whatever they want, with really only paranoia of an Inquisitor finding out keeping them in check. Necromunda feels like an outlier in so many ways in modern GW. It really feels like the last bastion of how GW was 20 years ago.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Jul 21, 2023 6:24:27 GMT -5
But the pieces to that are still around in the fluff? The "suffer not the alien to live", the concept of the "stab in the back" myth that requires all aliens no matter how friendly to be wiped out. The fact that there are no human alternatives because the HH books showed the 'join us or die' approach of the Great Crusade wiping out other humans. The pieces are all still there. The veneer of plausible deniability is very thin when going into the fluff. As for the mutant fluff, has it changed much? Don't know what the 10th rulebook says fluff wise. By and large, all that lore is still current, but has slipped into obscurity for the majority of newer players. Kinda makes it hard to sell Space Marines to 12 year olds otherwise, and profits are king for a PLC. This has coincided with an increasingly worrying trend to paint it as an in-lore fact that the Imperium's methods are necessary and the costs are justified for the outcome. The changes to blind faith being the biggest example- this now has widespread and tangible anti-Chaos benefits rather than being a hinderance to the overall functioning of the Imperium. All this stuff basically maps perfectly onto fascist propaganda, the sacrifices are necessary to survive death cult stuff. Thats what they sell to 12 year olds these days. There is a reason 40k has a fascist problem, and it basically boils down to 40k lore turning from fascist satire into fascist proganda in the name of corporate profits. I still enjoy the models and the old lore and the setting in general, but I am like Bob when it comes to newer stuff. I think the essence was never changed, the thinking that it was necessary has just shifted from being in-universe propaganda to portraying it as the truth. But a lot of the fluff around still portrays it as false. The Imperium is 'necessary' for humanity because the Imperium killed the alternatives. But pushing the atrocities to the background and turning it into noblebright propaganda without expressly stating that it is propaganda is a really bad turn for GW.
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Haighus
Ye Olde King of OT
Posts: 901
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Post by Haighus on Jul 21, 2023 6:28:55 GMT -5
By and large, all that lore is still current, but has slipped into obscurity for the majority of newer players. Kinda makes it hard to sell Space Marines to 12 year olds otherwise, and profits are king for a PLC. This has coincided with an increasingly worrying trend to paint it as an in-lore fact that the Imperium's methods are necessary and the costs are justified for the outcome. The changes to blind faith being the biggest example- this now has widespread and tangible anti-Chaos benefits rather than being a hinderance to the overall functioning of the Imperium. All this stuff basically maps perfectly onto fascist propaganda, the sacrifices are necessary to survive death cult stuff. Thats what they sell to 12 year olds these days. There is a reason 40k has a fascist problem, and it basically boils down to 40k lore turning from fascist satire into fascist proganda in the name of corporate profits. I still enjoy the models and the old lore and the setting in general, but I am like Bob when it comes to newer stuff. I think the essence was never changed, the thinking that it was necessary has just shifted from being in-universe propaganda to portraying it as the truth. But a lot of the fluff around still portrays it as false. The Imperium is 'necessary' for humanity because the Imperium killed the alternatives. But pushing the atrocities to the background and turning it into noblebright propaganda without expressly stating that it is propaganda is a really bad turn for GW. Changing from everything being presented as unreliable in-universe characters to portrayed as objective fact by omniscient narration is a huge change for me, and the core of this issue. Especially as this is what is fore and centre in the marketing etc.
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