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Post by adurot on Aug 6, 2019 15:27:10 GMT -5
What happened to all the "good guys with guns"? I thought they were supposed to stop this kind of thing? It’s not like many people in Texas have guns. |
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Aug 6, 2019 17:09:16 GMT -5
When you start with the either/or absolutism about personal responsibility and all other motives be damned there is very little left to discuss on this subject. How am I starting with the "either/or absolutism"? |
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Aug 6, 2019 17:15:26 GMT -5
Holy crap.
This is textbook fascism:
Literally incitement.
This makes me want to be the stick to the mud and refuse any engagement on gun control/red flag laws.
Also makes me not want to increase donor transparency laws.
Good job Joaquin...
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Aug 6, 2019 17:21:45 GMT -5
To do so is to absolve agency by those who committed these deeds. You can criticize Trump's rhetoric (I do as well)... you can criticize any group's rhetoric. But, the moment you assign blame to "x person" for the deeds of fucking evil, you're giving cover to the perp. This is either/or absolutism. Agency and blame are not finite concepts to be divided like a chocolate bar. When two people kill another person you don't have to give them both half a life sentence. There is no finite amount of responsibility to be assigned. You can assign blame to the perpetrator while still recognizing the drivers behind his actions. Personal responsibility is not diminished by acknowledging the political slant that contributed to those actions. |
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Aug 6, 2019 17:29:36 GMT -5
What happened to all the "good guys with guns"? I thought they were supposed to stop this kind of thing? It’s not like many people in Texas have guns. Oh, you know, I totally forgot how Texas is super anti-gun, but now that you mention it, I DO recall that! |
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Aug 6, 2019 17:34:17 GMT -5
"To do so is to absolve agency by those who committed these deeds. You can criticize Trump's rhetoric (I do as well)... you can criticize any group's rhetoric. But, the moment you assign blame to "x person" for the deeds of fucking evil, you're giving cover to the perp." This is either/or absolutism. Agency and blame are not finite concepts to be divided like a chocolate bar. When two people kill another person you don't have to give them both half a life sentence. You can assign blame to the perpetrator while still recognizing the drivers behind his actions. Personal responsibility is not diminished by acknowledging the political slant that attributed to those actions. Sigh... let's try this another way... I believe that if you don’t incite (the legal definition) violence against a group, your criticism of the activities of that group (such as illegal immigrants), cannot be held morally responsible in any way for violence against that group. (Deliberate slander or libel might be a different story.) Even if that rhetoric is vigorous and hyperbolic, such as terminologies that is not the norm (e.g. “invasion”), I can’t say the rhetoric is morally responsible for a shooting. The shooter is. I think you're wrongly ascribing blame here... it's deeper than the shooter's politics. |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Aug 6, 2019 17:44:55 GMT -5
That is a total non sequitur and so rigid it leaves no room for any debate. Morality isn't hogtied to legality.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Aug 6, 2019 18:08:24 GMT -5
It's also factually wrong. Multiple shooters have stated either in words or a manifesto that trump and right wing politics are some of the reasons they went and shot places up.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Aug 6, 2019 18:09:18 GMT -5
That is a total non sequitur and so rigid it leaves no room for any debate. Morality isn't hogtied to legality. It's not so rigid and of course morality isn't hogtied to legality. Simply saying the easy access to firearms and the rhetoric of our politics is the blame is a cop-out. No one should blame Elizabeth Warren for the Dayton shooting. The same is true of Trump and the El Paso shooter. We need to stop throwing blame haphazardly at the politicians with whom we disagree, or manipulating human suffering to push our personal politics. This is literally me not engaging in "both side'ism" or ignoring how detestable our politics is right now. You can detest Trump's tweets or his policies (or lack thereof)... but he's not calling for violence. Hell, Bernie's "revolution" or AOC literally greenlighting riots in tweets are more incendiary. However, blaming Trump or some other politician is only throwing naplam into the political burning brush pile. |
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Aug 6, 2019 18:13:09 GMT -5
That's a lot of attempting to equate dozens or hundreds of mass shootings with a clear right-wing political motive to a handful of only possibly left-wing politically motivated shootings.
But hey, why address the problem when you can shift the blame.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Aug 6, 2019 19:36:33 GMT -5
Again... I'm not saying right-wing violence doesn't happen... just as left-wing violence happens as well.
What I'm saying it is more than just political rhetoric.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Aug 6, 2019 19:41:58 GMT -5
What you're saying is both are equally bad or happen equally often, which is totally wrong. You won't even address the data showing that the right-wing is responsible for ~70-75% of domestic terrorism, or that in 2018 almost every extremist-related killing was committed by the right-wing.
So, cut your bullshit attempts to conflate both as equally bad and that they happen equally often. It's dishonest and in bad faith.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Aug 6, 2019 19:44:18 GMT -5
// said some shit without comprehending what I'm posting // God bless. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 19:52:11 GMT -5
It's guns. Guns guns guns. There simply is no way around that fact. No, it's not, and I can actually prove it.
Ok, on average, the US suffered from one mass shooting every six months from The Texas tower shooting in the 60's to Columbine in 1999. Following that, the rate increased from once every six months on average to once every three months on average. It then doubled again, following Las Vegas. I suspect that it has actually just doubled again, but we'll have to wait for a bit.
Now, if guns were the issue, the average would go up and down with the availability of guns. That's actually the REVERSE of what's happening. As additional measures and types of weapon have baan banned nad restricted, teh average continues to rise. I've been tearing my hair out trying to find something, anything, that follows this trend.
It's cell phones.
Now, before anyone puts on their aluminum, hear me out, because I know how fucking crazy it sounds. In 2011 (IIRC) there was study published that showed that there was a direct link between cellphone service availability and outbreaks of violence in Africa. At the time, it was assumed that this was some form of methodology error, that the violence already existed and just wasn't reported. However, there have been several medical studies done on the effects of what excessive cell use does to the brain, and it changes both neural architecture AND nuerochemistry, above the 45 min a day mark. The average in the US for an adult right now? A whopping 3 hours and forty five min. Based on FBI studies of the perps in months leading up to their crimes, most have had some sort of severe stress event.
I think that it's making some people more sensitive to stress, as we do not yet fully understand some of the changes it's causing, and inducing a sort of temporary psychotic break or overwhelming fight response. Since this does not follow traditional definitions or modles of mental illness, and it may be possible that they recover afterwards, it makes this a bit hard to diagnose. And, according to WHO, possibly Brain Cancer, but that's a minor issue. Further, while mass shootings are more or less a US thing, it's actually a symptom of a world wide phenomena. It's just how Americans tend to express it. Japan has seen a spike in teenage suicide, the worst in 30 years, and it's been ticking up along the same curve, even while other suicides have fallen off. Africa had the aforementioned spike in overall violence. I haven't really looked elsewhere since reliable data on cellphone usage is a little hard to come by.
I suspect that it makes the victim susceptible to suggestions to commit certain types of violence, either to themselves or others. The perps tend to come from a variety of ideologies and ethnic backgrounds, though whites do make up 51% of US mass shooters. The only thing that they all seem to have in common is they belong to groups with an overwhelming cell phone addiction. And hte rate that cell phone usage on average increases is a very close match to the upward trend in US shootings on average.
And while I know that correlation is not causation, this is a very suspicious trend.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Aug 6, 2019 19:53:59 GMT -5
whem, it's adorable how you never want to engage on any issue or address the actual cause of anything. You always just to say "both sides bad!" when republicans are caught doing something wrong or are proven to be the problem. You just parrot whatever trump says time and time again (i.e. "mental illness is the problem!" despite science and data saying otherwise). You never have a single moment of reflection or thought to analyze what they're actually saying, you just accept it wholesale every damn time.
But once again, anything to avoid admitting the racist rhetoric you're supporting and defending is the cause of mass shootings, eh? I guess it would be hard to accept that you're part of the problem as usual.
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