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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Sept 19, 2020 12:44:34 GMT -5
And that said, I'd certainly prefer that others show more spine than you do and not insult people related to you just for being related to you. That is low shit even if you're low shit yourself and this isn't the first time it's happened. And that's why democrats lose. They have literally no spine to pushback against republicans, and value "taking the high road" or "working with-in the system" more than actual results. It's why republicans have run roughshod over them even though they're only ~30% of the population. A video on the subject: You Go High, We Go Low
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Post by hatoflords on Sept 19, 2020 12:57:21 GMT -5
And that's why democrats lose. They have literally no spine to pushback against republicans, and value "taking the high road" or "working with-in the system" more than actual results. It's why republicans have run roughshod over them even though they're only ~30% of the population. That's completely farcical.
I'm more than happy to treat Whembly and other Republicans for what they are. Going off after vague personages and being grateful their dead is low shit, and it's galling that you think the only way to push back against Republicans is to disparage the dead just because the living are shit.
Being just as trash as the GOP has become doesn't make anyone want to fight the Republicans it makes them not give a shit who wins which is where I already find myself far too often these days. 30% of the population is already so fickle they can go from 40% disapproval of Trump one month to 80% disapproval one month later to 50% yet another month later. We're talking about people who are so uncommitted they are incapable of holding a consistent opinion on anything. 30% is so far up it's own ass they no longer know how to distinguish escalating fascism from conservatism, and I can't say arguing the remaining 30% should just become as bad is a thrilling position.
People get the government they deserve and the sad shit is that as time goes on the more obvious it becomes that Trump and Republicans are the government the US deserves.
Corrupt. Selfish. Inept. Incoherent. Spineless. Completely lacking in meaningful human compassion.
Garbage in, garbage out.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Sept 19, 2020 13:21:17 GMT -5
And insisting on taking the high road is exactly what republicans want. They're only relevant because democrats are stumped on what to do when the system fails them because republicans have abused it for so long and twisted it to suit their needs and democrats let them and reply only with sternly worded letters and finger wagging. I.e. what did impeachment ACTUALLY do? Did it stop the abduction of immigrant families? Did it stop the dismantling of regulations? Is the bringing up of McConnell's own words gonna stop him from packing SCOTUS further? Has any of Pelosi's weak ass (and literal) clap backs at trump done anything whatsoever?
Ironically, the only choices do suck. They're "do nothing and hope the republicans haven't rigged the swing states too badly", or "become almost as bad as they are." Neither are good options, but republicans are clearly the greater of two evils.
(Obviously there are non-options like "just accept it" etc)
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Sept 19, 2020 13:35:01 GMT -5
I didn't lie. Read further down the thread. Care to explain why the "only when it's different parties controlling the Presidency and the Senate" excuse only appears when it is politically expedient for you? Because there's actual precedent for it. Which part further down the thread, specifically? I'm not finding any mentions of this precedent in the justification of preventing Obama from appointing a judge.
You'll also note that the supposed "precedent" you listed still let the President in question nominate their candidate. The ones breaking precedence were thus the Republicans in 2016. Even in your beloved example of Bork the Senate still voted, and that vacancy was eventually filled by Kennedy. There is no precedence for this shittery.
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Post by hatoflords on Sept 19, 2020 13:36:55 GMT -5
And insisting on taking the high road is exactly what republicans want. I'm sorry, but how is disparaging someone's dead dad productive? Just because it's low doesn't make it useful.
Pack the courts. Fuck the GOP. Reform campaign finance. Fuck the GOP. Hell, start impeaching Republican senators and house members to get their shit out of government. Fuck the GOP. They're not playing by any norms so why should Democrats at this point? Republicans decided the only thing that matters is what you can get away with and still be in power so fuck it. Seize the moment and remake the system.
You still have to win elections first, unless your advocating civil war in which case good fucking luck with that. I think the US population is so idle in its complacency there is no realistic chance of civil war at this point. You're not going to win elections by being just as shit as shit.
You have to actual propose a model for the government that the fickle unattentive masses will get behind and "we disparage the dead cause fuck them" is a shit basis for anything and it amazes me how you've taken my objection to it as a basis of attack. Seriously. Whembly's a little shit with his head up his own ass, but at this point I have to wonder if you're trying to outdo him. Trying to fulfill short term catharsis is the Democrats problem right now, not anything about a high road or a low road. The Democratic base is just becoming the Republican base from the other direction and that direction is shit
That is exactly what Republicans want. Why do you think they love the 'both sides suck' argument so much?
If both sides are shit they don't have to feel bad about how shit they are.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Sept 19, 2020 13:38:29 GMT -5
That point about short-term catharsis was well-put.
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Post by steelmage99 on Sept 19, 2020 13:58:18 GMT -5
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Sept 19, 2020 14:08:48 GMT -5
You still have to win elections first
Borrowing from their book of tricks will absolutely let you win elections, and unless they do they have no hope of packing courts, no hope of winning enough seats in the Senate (although that's probably already too late), and no chance of winning the presidency unless they're also willing to use the underhanded tricks republicans do because republicans will never stop until their party literally dies off from old age. It's not just about disparaging dead shitbag dads. That's because it does hit despic in a weakspot that upsets him. That's entirely just because it feels good to make him suffer the tiniest bit, a fraction of what suffering the policies he supports does, and because his dad was most likely a shitbag. Despic didn't go out and and radically change to become the polar opposite of his dad, he's a carbon copy. You have to actual propose a model for the government that the fickle unattentive masses will get behind Something something "strongly worded letter" something something "high road" something something "work within the system." I feel like you're ignoring the entire issue. Working within the system is only feasible if all parties do so, otherwise you'll just get run over by rampant cheating, voter supression, and whatever other dirty tricks republicans can pull out. Now, if you're talking about using it to galvanize a voting base or something, well, that was tried and the democratic party didn't want it, and we ended up with Biden. A milquetoast neo-lib who opposes any sort of progressive policy, panders to wall street, and who the vast majority are basically indifferent on voting for. His most important and notable quality is "not trump." Beyond Biden's failings, it doesn't even seem like democrats are trying to mobilize in swing states, especially when DeJoy has already crippled USPS, among others doing stuff like making registering to vote harder. The point is that getting people riled up to vote isn't even half the battle. "Your Vote Matters" is the biggest lie in the US, unless you live in one of a few states, and potentially not even then. I won't fight you further on whether or not my calling his dead dad a piece of shit is morally wrong or not, if that's your opinion, then so be it. However, despic doesn't care about everyone his glorious orange leader makes suffer and saying/supporting the notion that all immigrants south of the border are terrible criminals (for example), or how trump is directly responsible for almost 200,000 dead, then why should I care about whether or not his failure of a father was or wasn't a piece of shit? Because it's morally correct to not insult him because we don't know what he was like? Seems to his father failed to raise him with any empathy whatsoever, and I find it hard to have any empathy or respect for those without.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Sept 19, 2020 14:21:42 GMT -5
I never said "Democrats did it first"... I said they argued for it, even though the situation didn't arise. Here's the Biden Rule: www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/us/politics/joe-biden-argued-for-delaying-supreme-court-picks-in-1992.htmlMcConnell argued this last night and mentioned over the years that he'd do this. This isn't some new epiphany in the last 24 hours, McConnell/GOP as stated over and over they'd fill this seat: He explained that the “Biden Rule” “which provided that the Senate will not fill Supreme Court vacancies that arise in presidential election years when the presidency and the Senate majority are held by opposing parties.” The Senate must advise and consent, but they determine when to vote or not vote. McConnell and Senate Republicans did just that with Merrick Garland.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Sept 19, 2020 14:27:55 GMT -5
I didn't lie. Read further down the thread. Because there's actual precedent for it. Which part further down the thread, specifically? I'm not finding any mentions of this precedent in the justification of preventing Obama from appointing a judge.
You'll also note that the supposed "precedent" you listed still let the President in question nominate their candidate. The ones breaking precedence were thus the Republicans in 2016. Even in your beloved example of Bork the Senate still voted, and that vacancy was eventually filled by Kennedy. There is no precedence for this shittery.
I didn't lie. POTUS nominates. Senate Advises & Consent. That's really it. Anything else is politics. In 2016, the outcome didn't work out the way you wanted. Doesn't make it any less illegitmate. There's all kinds of shittery with response to Judge confirmation process. It's about raw political power now. ...and the fuckery during the Kavanaugh hearing lost you an ally in Lindsay Graham. Democrats are reaping what they've sowed here. To reiterate, it's not all that unprecedented. In terms of raw power, a majority of senators has the power to seat any nominee they want, and block any nominee they want. Historically, that power of the majority was limited by the filibuster, (technically, now it's the cloture vote to stop the debate) but a majority can change that rule, and has. Precedents has long limited the filibuster’s use in judicial nominations in the first place, and violation of those precedents, led to its eventual abolition. Keep in mind that no Supreme Court nominee was filibustered by a minority of Senators until 1968. Senate Democrats attempted filibusters of William Rehnquist TWICE, and launched the first formal filibuster of a new appointment to the Court on partisan lines against Samuel Alito in 2005. Joe Biden participated prominently in the Rehnquist AND Alito filibusters. Then, Senate Democrats, led by favorite pal Harry Reid and Chuck Schumer (who was cheered by Biden), were the first to filibuster federal appellate nominees in 2003. After Republicans adopted the same tactic years later, Senate Democrats eliminated the filibuster for appellate nominees in 2013. Then, when Obama nominated Garland Republicans used their majority power via the Advise and Consent to deny Garland the seat. Republicans, thus extended that elimination to Supreme Court nominees in 2017. So, today, Donald Trump has the absolute raw power to make a Supreme Court nomination all the way to the end of his term. Senate Republicans have the raw power to confirm one at least until a new Senate is seated on January 3, and so long as there are at least 50 Republican senators on that date... til Trump leaves office. Whether they should use this power, however, is a matter of precendents, and of politics. There's precedent for Republicans to confirm the seat, even at this close to the elections. There's POLITICS as well, as the Republican voters will demand it.
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Post by hatoflords on Sept 19, 2020 14:30:06 GMT -5
It's not just about disparaging dead shitbag dads. That's because it does hit despic in a weakspot that upsets him. It upsets him in the same way you get upset when some asshole cuts you off on the road. By the end of the day, you're either over it or you're so angry all the time literally nothing will change your default mood. I feel like you're not actually reading what I wrote, or even thinking your own statement through. If you're not going to "work within the system" what is it you propose anyone do? Stuff ballot boxes? Bombings? Shootings? There's plenty of "work outside the system" options but I'm just gonna see you as one of those stuffy little peacocks who brags about how they'd punch Hitler if they could go back in time like that means anything. Working within the system is all you have unless you're willing to work outside the system, at which point I highly doubt you'll find much success at this point in time or that you've thought that entire rationale through. Republican cheating is infuriating, but you assume they're smart enough to cheat effectively and I don't think they are. If you want to do something meaningful about it, then go to your local polling place, volunteer, and make sure the election is fair. That's all you can really do and all this other stuff is just hot air with no coherence behind it. And this tells me you're just not paying attention to the race. Biden is spending the mountains of money he's racked in nearly all the swing states. He's personally gone to Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Florida, and Arizona in the last month alone. The only swing states he's putting little effort into are Ohio and Michigan, and Harris has been to Michigan and he's probably not going to win Ohio anyway which makes it sort of not a swing state in this particular election. DeWine has been far too effective a governor for Republican stock to be low enough there for it to swing. He's even expanding his campaign in Georgia a bit and both candidates are absent from Virginia because no one thinks it's a swing state anymore, it's a blue state. The point is that getting people riled up to vote is half the battle. The other half is getting them to vote for you. We insult the dead is not a compelling motivator and there's nothing lost dropping it. My parents are completely lost to the Foxosphere. I can't even talk to them about politics, or most things, because they're completely beyond rationality and do nothing but circle jerk Republican talking points. Talking points I vehemently loathe. Not just for what they say but what they represent. And I'm nothing like them. So cut the shit. Your parents don't decide who you are, and there's no reason to piss on the dead just because you're angry. This is the behavior of a toddler and toddlers don't get anything by annoyance when they whine.
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Post by hatoflords on Sept 19, 2020 14:35:38 GMT -5
I never said "Democrats did it first"... I said they argued for it, even though the situation didn't arise. Also Whembly: Literally everything boils down to the Democrats did it first with you, and it's amazing how these quotes perfectly reflect your entire rhetorical check list. Classic goal post.
To borrow an old classic, the party of personal responsibility everyone! Anything bad that happens is just what they had to do and the bad situation that forced them to do it is never their fault.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Sept 19, 2020 14:42:43 GMT -5
I never said "Democrats did it first"... I said they argued for it, even though the situation didn't arise. Also Whembly: Literally everything boils down to the Democrats did it first with you, and it's amazing how these quotes perfectly reflect your entire rhetorical check list. Classic goal post.
To borrow an old classic, the party of personal responsibility everyone! Anything bad that happens is just what they had to do and the bad situation that forced them to do it is never their fault.
There's nothing wrong with those statements. I don't like it where Democrats flex their majority powers either. Just as you don't like it when Republicans does it. Welcome to partisan politics.
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Post by hatoflords on Sept 19, 2020 14:49:08 GMT -5
There's nothing wrong with those statements. Except for the fact that four of them are completely false in the context they were uttered and all of them are empty rhetoric.
But congrats on managing to seamlessly segway into the next part of the Slug Circuit (taking all bets!) that comes after the Goal Post Turn, the Both Side Suck straight away.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Sept 19, 2020 15:31:37 GMT -5
So cut the shit. Your parents don't decide who you are, and there's no reason to piss on the dead just because you're angry. This is the behavior of a toddler and toddlers don't get anything by annoyance when they whine. Not always no, and I didn't say "your parents 100% determine what you'll be like," but it is HIGHLY likely they'll influence you depending on your amount of contact with them, especially when growing up and you're not exposed to much outside thought or critical thinking skills (as despic has demonstrated a lack of). The biggest example is religion. Cults (and all religions really) don't rely on outside converts. They're not trying to draw flocks of new members, they rely on indoctrinating children to never question their teachings to survive generation to generation, and that's quickly what the GOP is turning into. They're teaching their older members to never question leadership that's part of their group, and those parents are teaching their children the same. Your one anecdotal example is completely meaningless. Congrats on escaping the indoctrination (assuming they were heavily into Fox and the like when you were growing up) because that's VERY hard to do, especially depending on where you grew up. Outside thought and contact with other schools of thought is not something you can take for granted, and is the biggest factor in actually escaping it. And there's all the reason to piss on the dead. Shitbags who are dead are still shitbags, and should be remembered as such, otherwise groups will latch onto them eventually and try to glorify them, and attempt to rewrite history. Just look at all the "southern pride" assholes.
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