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Post by mikosann on Sept 21, 2020 9:25:06 GMT -5
How did the Senate advice on Garland's appointment? They didn't. No matter how much you keep repeating "advice and consent" there was no advice. The Senate was never allowed the chance to give or withhold consent. If you're going to claim the high ground of following proper procedure you can't then ignore the procedure. If I ask your for advice on a subject and you don't respond you have not given advice. You fundamentally misunderstand the process. There's no constitutional/precendent/or other requirement for the Senate to actually vote whether or not to confirm judges. The mere fact that the GOP Senate chose NOT to start the confirmation process for Garland *is* the Senate exercise their constitutional Advise & Consent power. That is still following "proper procedures". This is a cop out and you know it. Do you really think it was ever considered that they wouldn't even have hearings? At best its a technicality, in reality its complete bullshit. So they are constitutionally bound to advise and consent, but Moscow Mitch didn't do either one and your argument is yep thats fine. Just remember when the shoe is on the other foot how little you cared about such abuses of power while team red was pulling this garbage. I don;t actually expect you will though, it will be right back to crying about the constitution and precedent this, norm that.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Sept 21, 2020 9:36:36 GMT -5
The response to that would be that the Republicans, having a majority in the Senate, voted to not provide the advice part by not holding any hearings through empowering McConnell to quash it. I obviously don't agree with this, but the Republicans have never been good at understanding that "it's legal!" is not a very strong moral argument.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Sept 21, 2020 10:39:51 GMT -5
What is the process through which Congress decides on anything? Voting. The Republicans are the majority of Congress, but that doesn't mean that they ARE Congress. Taking away the minority's voice is not democratic, even if it is technically legal. It's interesting that the tyranny of the majority as a concept is only ever relevant when justifying why Republicans should be allowed to govern despite being in minority. Also, you have to actually have a working moral compass to be able to ascertain whether someone else's is working. Even if we ignore that the Kavanaugh hearings shouldn't even have existed in the first place, considering the combination of Trump's shameless lying combined with the things historically expressed by leading Republicans when they thought no one was listening (Atwater, comments on the "war on drugs" vis-a-vis minorities and hippies, Trump's lies regarding Covid, the justification for the Iraq war etc.) I think it's pretty blatantly obvious who the demented shitheads are. Much as I dislike the Democratic party, there will never be a sane political climate in the US as long as the current Republican party exists. The threat of fascism is far greater than that posed by a right-wing politician like Biden. Ultimately, if the Republican party were moral, how come it always does as much as it physically can to disenfranchise voters? Are these the actions of a party with a functioning moral compass? Ultimately, a party that cannot win elections without a finger on the scale is less moral than one that can, let alone one that can win despite having the system stacked against it.
It's going to be difficult to have meaningful discussions because you say "Much as I dislike the Democratic party, there will never be a sane political climate in the US as long as the current Republican party exists. The threat of fascism is far greater than that posed by a right-wing politician like Biden." Bruh...I feel the exact opposite. The Democrat party are going out of their fucking minds and I'd argue the fascist movements is coming from the Democrat side of the ledger, rather the Republicans. Back to the scotus seat, it's not unprecedented wally. It really isn't. Here's a bit of history (yeah, it's a conservative site, but they're definitely not "pro Trump"): www.nationalreview.com/2020/08/history-is-on-the-side-of-republicans-filling-a-supreme-court-vacancy-in-2020/Another source: www.republicanleader.senate.gov/newsroom/research/get-the-facts-what-leader-mcconnell-actually-said-in-2016www.republicanleader.senate.gov/newsroom/remarks/the-american-people-should-have-a-voice-in-the-selection-of-the-next-supreme-court-justiceI've highlighted this, stated this numerous times in different fashion. McConnell elided this so many times. That distinction will be willfully ignored or lied about by some on this board, who want to rap McConnell for rank hypocrisy, while others will dismiss it as hair-splitting. But his words and the facts matter. Indeed, under split partisan control, by far the likeliest historical outcome was exactly the one that befell Merrick Garland in 2016.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Sept 21, 2020 10:48:15 GMT -5
But, again, that was not the argument being made in 2016.
Also, the argument that the Democratic party is more likely to usher in fascism than the Republicans is ludicrous. Fascism hates liberalism almost as much as it hates socialism. It is not the Democratic party defending the usage of police against peaceful demonstrators, it is not the Democratic party that is defending picking people off the streets in unmarked cars, and it is not the Democratic party that elected a narcissistic serial liar as their hill to die on.
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Post by mikosann on Sept 21, 2020 10:58:01 GMT -5
Right, they found that saying the american people should have a say on the vacancy was a great issue for them going into an election. Now, not so much.
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Post by adurot on Sept 21, 2020 11:03:21 GMT -5
Right, they found that saying the american people should have a say on the vacancy was a great issue for them going into an election. Now, not so much. Going into an election had nothing to do with it. It’s all about if it’s their guy or not.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Sept 21, 2020 11:20:55 GMT -5
But, again, that was not the argument being made in 2016. Yes. It WAS in 2016. Click in the links if you don't believe me and look at the dates, particularly McConnell's own statements. Nope. Not ludicrous at all. It's the Democratic party that is losing their shit. It's the various groups like BLM, antifa and others are perpetuating violence. There are actual "rage mobs" on the streets, protesting politician's own home at night. No sir. It's not ludicrous at all man.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Sept 21, 2020 11:21:23 GMT -5
Right, they found that saying the american people should have a say on the vacancy was a great issue for them going into an election. Now, not so much. You're leaving out important context.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Sept 21, 2020 11:21:58 GMT -5
Right, they found that saying the american people should have a say on the vacancy was a great issue for them going into an election. Now, not so much. Going into an election had nothing to do with it. It’s all about if it’s their guy or not. Yes. That's how this works.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Sept 21, 2020 11:31:45 GMT -5
Its funny to claim that Democrats are moving closer to fascism when Trump has time and again hit those fascist notes (intended or not). Hell, heavily armed right wing militias provoking violence is textbook 1920's Germany and Trump is the guy egging them on, blaming the 'socialist left'. The actual fascists and neo nazis are all on Trump's side and he has done the bare minimum to denounce them while bullhorning enough to keep their votes...
Even now he is struggling to keep his whitewashed image of US history preserved even going against for example military inclinations on renaming bases and such.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Sept 21, 2020 11:38:52 GMT -5
It’s nice to be in agreement on something once in a blue moon. Nothing gets Europeans on the same page like looking across the ocean and rolling our eyes in exasperation.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Sept 21, 2020 11:42:04 GMT -5
It’s nice to be in agreement on something once in a blue moon. Nothing gets Europeans on the same page like looking across the ocean and rolling our eyes in exasperation. Nothing like Americans looking across the ocean and realizing how lucky we are.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Sept 21, 2020 11:46:16 GMT -5
Its funny to claim that Democrats are moving closer to fascism when Trump has time and again hit those fascist notes (intended or not). Hell, heavily armed right wing militias provoking violence is textbook 1920's Germany and Trump is the guy egging them on, blaming the 'socialist left'. The actual fascists and neo nazis are all on Trump's side and he has done the bare minimum to denounce them while bullhorning enough to keep their votes... Even now he is struggling to keep his whitewashed image of US history preserved even going against for example military inclinations on renaming bases and such. It's especially ironic when he's actively attacking the free press and saying shit like "It's beautiful" when a journalist from CNN was hit with a rubber bullet and that it was "law and order", and arguing that he deserves a third term. And apparently, throwing kids in cages while separating them from their family, abusing them, removing any pretense of a politcal platform, demonizing the opposition, openly calling for people to attack said opposition, and openly supporting fascism and nationalists is less of an indicator that a party is moving towards fascism than contesting a judge because he's a rapist liar who isn't fit to serve on the nation's highest court. but that's despic for you. He's purposely lying about everything that's happening (i.e. the debunked "BLM is violent!" myth) so he doesn't have to admit he's part of the problem. Nothing gets Europeans on the same page like looking across the ocean and rolling our eyes in exasperation. Nothing like Americans looking across the ocean and realizing how lucky we are. About what? That we get to die in the streets without healthcare? That we have to be in debt for most of our lives to go to college? That our standard of living and length of life is lower than almost any other first world country? That Americans work harder, and longer, for less money? That the US has more deaths by guns per capita than the EU? That they have the coronavirus under better control than the US? That their police aren't nearly as militant and brutal as the US's? That the EU is ranked higher in press freedom than the US? That on average, the EU has better internet access than the US? That public transport is better in the EU? Seriously, get out of your "American exceptionalism" bubble and actually have an original thought for once.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Sept 21, 2020 11:50:47 GMT -5
Nothing gets Europeans on the same page like looking across the ocean and rolling our eyes in exasperation. Nothing like Americans looking across the ocean and realizing how lucky we are. To be fair, that's not what most happiness reports show (the US consistently ranks below Western Europe+Aussie and kiwi island), but as long as you have a nicely filled bank account, I can see where its coming from.
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Post by mikosann on Sept 21, 2020 12:00:20 GMT -5
Nothing like Americans looking across the ocean and realizing how lucky we are. About what? That we get to die in the streets without healthcare? That we have to be in debt for most of our lives to go to college? That our standard of living and length of life is lower than almost any other first world country? That Americans work harder, and longer, for less money? That the US has more deaths by guns per capita than the EU? That they have the coronavirus under better control than the US? That their police aren't nearly as militant and brutal as the US's? That the EU is ranked higher in press freedom than the US? That on average, the EU has better internet access than the US? That public transport is better in the EU? Seriously, get out of your "American exceptionalism" bubble and actually have an original thought for once. Its become apparent to me as I've gotten older that for conservatives freedom is defined by how many guns they can own and how much of American history they can choose to disregard. Nothing like the freedom to bear arms in complete and total ignorance. Its the best freedom. All the freedom. So free.
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