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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 9:46:27 GMT -5
Ah Baron I didn't mean voters, I meant the Republican politicians. Usually Republican politicians are much more opposed to regulations and labor laws than their voters. Well, I should be glad my term of office ended then, wouldn't want to be lumped in with them!
And, to be blunt, both sides are the same. There is no difference between attacking a private citizen and a public person, other than the degree to which you can actually hurt them. And, with artists and actors etc in particular, you're attacking them for being who and what they are.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Jan 22, 2021 10:06:27 GMT -5
Ah Baron I didn't mean voters, I meant the Republican politicians. Usually Republican politicians are much more opposed to regulations and labor laws than their voters. Well, I should be glad my term of office ended then, wouldn't want to be lumped in with them!
And, to be blunt, both sides are the same. There is no difference between attacking a private citizen and a public person, other than the degree to which you can actually hurt them. And, with artists and actors etc in particular, you're attacking them for being who and what they are.
Well, to be fair, it very much depends on the electorate. I was generalizing, of course they aren't all the same, but if enough of them look at it from the same angle, the result doesn't change. Deregulation was the name of the game. You're not on your knees praying at the altar of the Trump family, but the significant majority of them are for example. I think there is a significant difference between a private and a public person though. "Attacking them for being who or what they are" in the case of actors and authors is a very grey field. Take Mel Gibson, he is pretty famous for being a massive bigot. Yeah, when you want to 'cancel' Gibson for being a bigot, I guess you're attacking him for who he is. Should that mean he should just be free to spew his crap in public without facing professional consequences? Where do you draw the line that goes from 'attacking' to advocating against them for being actively harmful? Would that line only be crossed with illegal actions? Would illegal actions be a line? |
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Jan 22, 2021 11:30:44 GMT -5
I'd like it a lot more if this were true. But, in theory, for example, if a policeman storms into an innocent person's apartment and shoots them dead, under the justice systems we have, that police officer is accountable. Them not being held so is not the norm, and cause for public outrage. Prosecutors who abuse their power, under the justice system, are responsible for their actions too, and we send them to jail when we catch them at it. Crooked judges who back prisons for profit too. And prison is NOT a nice place when you're a crooked judge.
"In theory" you're correct. In reality, you're not. Did you miss all of the BLM protests about people being shot dead and the killers not being held accountable? Or the EXTREMELY excessive force police used on their protests? The only way you could "disprove" my point is "in theory," so please, let's stick to what has actually happened. Or, I can play the "in theory" game too and ignore the flaws of cancel culture, but we both know that's stupid. Under what you're proposing, that's much more common, and no one is accountable. When you call it a Justice System, you're glorifying cyber bullying and swatting. The only difference between what you're calling for and what Tyler Raj Barriss is doing 20 in Federal Prison for is that you're doing it in the name of politics rather than because you were pissed off at them for beating you in a CoD match.
1. I did not call it a justice system 2. I did not "propose it" 3. I am not glorifying cyberbullying or swatting, just like you're not glorifying murders like Breonna Taylor's. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop building strawmen and actually engage with what I've said for once in this entire discussion.And, since this combines the worst aspects of a witch trial and an internet forum, let's ask the question: what happens when they turn it on you? Because that's a thing now too, if you took the time to read that Atlantic Article I linked for you. And it's a LOT harder to destroy, or end, someone's life with the Justice System than it is with Cancel Culture. It has no defense, no appeal, and no mitigating circumstances, and it's just as happy to destroy your life for something you did as a minor 20 years ago as it is for something you did recently as an adult, and if it does so isn't based on evidence or law, but is rather completely arbitrary.
Different scales, and the justice system can be used to destroy your life just as easily by someone positioned to do so. The equivalent of a police officer is someone with a large following, and just like police, they can fabricate evidence or distort it for their own purpose. The difference is the justice system will fuck you WAY harder. It'll take away your house, your job, AND your freedom for the next 20 years. We don't want cancel culture to evolve into thought policing. A little late for that, since that's exactly what some people are advocating for, including wolf, depending on how you read his last few posts.
That's a fucking lie. You are being so fucking dishonest it disgusts me. You won't actually read what I write. You just see ONE sentence you dislike and stop reading, ignore my entire post, and build a bunch of strawmen to attack it with. You are literally acting like despic. You don't read my posts, you ignore anything I present, and you misrepresent anything I say just because you're not actually interested in a discussion. Seriously, go fuck yourself if you're going to be this willfully dishonest. Go throw a temper tantrum and leave the forum like you threatened to do. It does, however, reminds me of someone else who did that... |
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Post by hatoflords on Jan 22, 2021 12:07:59 GMT -5
Oh, come on. Don't be a dick. I've at no point in my life been afraid of being a dick to people.
I'm sick of this empty moralizing. No one here advocated thought policing. When a drunk gets carried out of a bar because they're disrupting the place, no one calls it thought policing and being made to sleep it off in the jail over night isn't a civil rights violation. That's a bullshit straw man.
I'm sick of this both sides are wrong false equivalency. No one here advocated sending lynch mobs to people's homes. That's a bullshit straw man and it deserves a double bullshit for throwing it out when conservatives just spent two months riling a mob up and sent them to the people's houses to commit crimes. And if you don't like conservatives being painted as the villains, it would help to stop enabling the villains at very step because I'm not responsible for the crosses people nail themselves to.
I'm sick of this idiocy masquerading as intelligent thought. No one here has advocated cyberbullying. It's almost like he's throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Bullshit doesn't stick. It just stinks the place up.
If people are so worried about the innocent being caught up in a sweltering tide of paranoid overreactions, they might start by doing something about the people who drive paranoid overreaction for profit and not waste our time by lecturing us on eighth grade history. We're never going to be able to gag people and stop them from saying 'shut up idiot' on the internet and we're never going to be able to stop stupid people from being stupid. All this 'but the innocent' crap is just a reworded version of 'won't someone think of the children' as if no one ever thinks of the children. I'm gonna be a dick about it. I'm out of patience for this pseudo-intellectual garbage.
Donald Trump should go to jail. So should all of his principle enablers who amplified his bullshit and sought to profit from it. Baron's trying to lecture us about hypothetical lynch mobs when we have an actual lynch mob to deal with and far as I can tell the people who created it are still free and happily working away at creating a new lynch mob for later because violent extremism is a wonderful way to get lynch mobs when you don't do anything about the violent extremists.
The rest of this crap he's on about is is just a bunch of high horse cocksucking and I'm going to call it what it is.
Case and point: Case and point. Shitheel opportunist accuses the other side of 'silencing dissent' after he voted to overturn a democratic election for personal gain and the mob he irresponsibly unleashed failed to do with extralegal violence what he couldn't do with empty political gamesmanship. I'm not entertaining this man as a victim of any sort of McCarythist plot. That's bullshit. No one is advocating we start black balling people for some words we disagree with. Hawley helped rile up a mob. He irresponsibly cost lives and tarnished the image of the country for his future ambitions. He, by sheer idiocy or negligence, was party to the attempted overthrow of democracy. He should pay for it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 15:42:03 GMT -5
Did you miss all of the BLM protests about people being shot dead and the killers not being held accountable? Apparently you did, since that is the exact lack of accountability is integral to the system you seem to support. Imagine every time that happened, no one was held accountable. Because that is, by and large, what happens. In 2012, I watched an internet shitheel stand up, and give a speech in Iceland to a few thousand people that amounted to a TED talk about how to drive someone to suicide. 1. I did not call it a justice system Apologies, you called it 'like' a justice system. Different scales, and the justice system can be used to destroy your life just as easily by someone positioned to do so. The equivalent of a police officer is someone with a large following, and just like police, they can fabricate evidence or distort it for their own purpose. The difference is the justice system will fuck you WAY harder. It'll take away your house, your job, AND your freedom for the next 20 years. And we can catch that person and put him behind bars. There are consequences to doing something like that if you get caught. You know what happened to Gianturco when he got caught trying to engineer another persons suicide? He was banned from a game for 30 days, forced to give up leadership in his guild, supposedly, and eventually left his law firm to start his own company with money donated by his adoring fan base. There's also recompense, usually, from the state for people who get possessions seized and jobs taken etc when someone sets that up. When someone does that through Cancel Culture, they're left permanently fucked with nothing and no way to get it back, unless they're already so wealthy they don't care. It has been used to rightfully harm those who push things that hurt people like Alex Jones, or Fox "News" or the MyPillow shitbag. And while it doesn't always cause long-lasting damage to them (sometimes it's just a temporary dip in their sales or whatever), it is a gradual change towards a society that does not allow their ilk. Looks like exactly what you advocated to me. I'm sure that I'm somehow being 'dishonest' by quoting your own words back to you, but I don't see how that's an unfair interpretation of what you said in the least. Donald Trump should go to jail. So should all of his principle enablers who amplified his bullshit and sought to profit from it. Baron's trying to lecture us about hypothetical lynch mobs when we have an actual lynch mob to deal with and far as I can tell the people who created it are still free and happily working away at creating a new lynch mob for later because violent extremism is a wonderful way to get lynch mobs when you don't do anything about the violent extremists. While I don't disagree with you on Trump and his enablers, the internet has a way of, to quote an old motto of Cult of the Dead Cow, "making the hypothetical practical" Shitheel opportunist accuses the other side of 'silencing dissent' after he voted to overturn a democratic election for personal gain and the mob he irresponsibly unleashed failed to do with extralegal violence what he couldn't do with empty political gamesmanship. And he's been taken to task for it by more than one person because he gleefully praised attempts to silence his fellow conservatives when they spoke out against Trump. |
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Post by tannhauser42 on Jan 22, 2021 16:10:23 GMT -5
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Jan 22, 2021 16:27:18 GMT -5
Apparently you did, since that is the exact lack of accountability is integral to the system you seem to support. Imagine every time that happened, no one was held accountable. Because that is, by and large, what happens. In 2012, I watched an internet shitheel stand up, and give a speech in Iceland to a few thousand people that amounted to a TED talk about how to drive someone to suicide. So.. do you think Breonna Taylor got justice? Or Trayvon Martin? Or any of the other numerous examples of cops killing people, lying about the situation, and not being charged over it? You're delusional, the justice system is broken, and here you are naively believing it still works. Apologies, you called it 'like' a justice system. Correct, but it is not a justice system, but it is like one. If this is your take away, you totally missed the comparison. II was trying to show you how everything you complain about in "Cancel Culture" is present and worse in the justice system which you hold in high regards it seems. And we can catch that person and put him behind bars. There are consequences to doing something like that if you get caught. You know what happened to Gianturco when he got caught trying to engineer another persons suicide? He was banned from a game for 30 days, forced to give up leadership in his guild, supposedly, and eventually left his law firm to start his own company with money donated by his adoring fan base. There's also recompense, usually, from the state for people who get possessions seized and jobs taken etc when someone sets that up. When someone does that through Cancel Culture, they're left permanently fucked with nothing and no way to get it back, unless they're already so wealthy they don't care. I don't think you understand the difference between going to prison, and getting "canceled." Going to prison sets you back FAR worse, and leaves a permanent mark that cannot be erased or forgotten. It potentially strips you of rights "canceling" cannot. "Canceling" is harmful, but it is nowhere near as bad. It does not take away your freedom quite like prison does, it does not strip you of your possessions like prison does (and yes, prison does. If you cannot make your house payment... well, it's going away), and "canceling" is not even effective all the time, nor does it impact those at the bottom nearly as badly as prison does. Looks like exactly what you advocated to me. I'm sure that I'm somehow being 'dishonest' by quoting your own words back to you, but I don't see how that's an unfair interpretation of what you said in the least. Do you... do you really not know the difference between "thought policing" and what those people did? Alex Jones caused measurable harm and suffering to people who had already suffered a terrible tragedy. Are you seriously going to say him amping his listeners and followers up and getting them to harass families was just "thoughts"? Do you think Fox News and the My Pillow shitbag pushing voter fraud conspiracies (among other things obviously) was harmless? Fucking really? You cannot be this dense. Speech is not thought, speech is action. You cannot be so dumb as to not understand that. And the worst part about this shit you're spewing is that the "canceling" happened AFTER they caused harm with actions. Fucking christ Baron, you're being beyond dishonest here. Are you really going to flat-out rewrite history to pretend these people did NOT cause harm of some kind? They weren't "canceled" for bad thinking, they were "canceled" for harmful actions, I cannot stress this enough, and I you have to be aware of this. So yeah, you're a liar, and a bad one at that. |
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Post by Least censored on the planet! on Jan 22, 2021 16:37:48 GMT -5
I've at no point in my life been afraid of being a dick to people. Sure, be a dick to some other people, be a dick to Josh Hawley (if that even counts as being a dick), but don't be a dick to Baron maybe? |
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Post by tannhauser42 on Jan 22, 2021 16:40:14 GMT -5
I'm going to have to disagree with you on one of your premises, Wolf: today, more than ever, speech IS thought. With the internet and social media, what people say is what they think. Yes, there are varying degrees and finer philosophical points, but, by and large, we are what we say we are.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Jan 22, 2021 16:46:47 GMT -5
I'm going to have to disagree with you on one of your premises, Wolf: today, more than ever, speech IS thought. With the internet and social media, what people say is what they think. Yes, there are varying degrees and finer philosophical points, but, by and large, we are what we say we are. Speech is action, but I can see your point about it being how they act upon their thoughts (which I agree with). That still doesn't make it thought-policing in my opinion, they're free to think however they want so long as they don't act on the thoughts that cause harm to others. |
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CommieCanUCK
Ye Olde King of OT
The poster formerly known as feeder
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Post by CommieCanUCK on Jan 22, 2021 16:49:20 GMT -5
I think you guys are talking past each other. Perhaps someone can define how 'cancel culture' differs from a boycott.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Jan 22, 2021 17:15:43 GMT -5
I have to agree with Walrus that equating speech with thought is a sophism. All speech is thought, without coherent thought there would be no speech. Yet I make the conscious decision to turn my thought into speech here, just as I have made the decision to hold my tongue here just as many times. Thoughts you keep in your head, speech you willingly release into the public, its where thought crosses into speech.
Just look at Alex Jones, who is almost seemingly getting defend as a 'victim' of 'cancel culture'. The people that harassed the relatives of those that died at Sandy Hook didn't do so because the could read Jones' thoughts, they did so because they were motivated by speech, his speech. Why would protecting the innocent from 'cancel culture' have to go hand in hand with people like Alex Jones getting away with things that also hurt innocent people?
Its incredibly disingenuous to argue that speech=thought, because that is exactly the defence these terrible people would want you to buy into so they can shout "1984!". Some people might not be intelligent enough to control their behaviour on social media, but to make blanket statements like this is doing an incredible disservice to all the people here that have tried to extensively explain the nuances.
Steering these arguments into that sort of binary conclusions only helps to smother debate and declare everything as equally bad.
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Post by tannhauser42 on Jan 22, 2021 17:34:59 GMT -5
I disagree, but as I lack the ability to properly express myself effectively and efficiently on this matter, I pretty much have to leave it at that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 17:37:26 GMT -5
I think you guys are talking past each other. Perhaps someone can define how 'cancel culture' differs from a boycott.
A boycott is refusing to purchase someone's goods or watch their shows, and having nothing to do with them. This is, in my opinion completely acceptable behavior.
Cancel Culture expands on financial attack, including efforts to force them out of their jobs, homes, and to inflict targeted harassment against the subject, their employers, and their families in an effort to force them to either leave or to conform to whatever it is the perpetrators want. This can include murder attempts via swatting or arson in more extreme cases.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Jan 22, 2021 17:45:14 GMT -5
Ah yes, not wanting people to push bigotry or false claims about voter fraud that led to an attempted coup (or similar like Alex Jones did) is truly the worst thing ever. How dare anyone ever oppose them.
Ironically, Baron, you want to "cancel" "cancel culture" thus, silencing their thoughts and acting as the thought police by your own logic.
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