The 4-day Work Week

[easye]

There have been more and more articles on this topic, and it doesn't really fit in the WFH thread or the Robots coming to take our jobs thread..... so I guess I decided to start a new thread on the topic of the 4-day work week.....

These nurse managers were burnt out. Then their hospital gave them a 4-day workweek

www.npr.org/2024/06/26/nx-s1-5013956/4-four-day-week-work-life-balance-nurse-managers

The four-day workweek has won converts in offices, government agencies, even manufacturing. Now it's making inroads into health care.



Since the pandemic, a handful of hospitals, including AtlantiCare Regional Medical Center in New Jersey, have begun offering a four-day workweek to nurse managers, who are akin to CEOs in their level of responsibility overseeing big teams of nurses and ensuring proper care.



The move to the shorter workweek was prompted by alarming rates of turnover since the pandemic. Ten months in, AtlantiCare has seen no negative impact on patient care. No nurse managers have quit.

I will be interested to see how the 4-day work week, AI adoption, and WFH all intersect in the coming decade to re-shape or change working how we know it. 

[Haighus]

Loads of my healthcare colleagues have gone less-than-full-time. It is a part of the staffing crisis in the NHS because healthcare does require a minimum number of staff to physically be present in order to ensure required monitoring and cover.

However, people are seeing enough benefits in LTFT for it to be worth the paycut. If it was at full-time pay then it would be a big boost to working conditions IMO and probably draw staff back into the NHS.

[herzlos]

I was friends with a nurse around the time they went from I think 5x8 hour shifts to 3/4x12 hour shifts and they felt it was great.

I'll personally be jumping at the opportunity to go down to a 4 day week when I can afford the pay cut. Going by most of the studies I'm not sure I'd even be less productive but it'd result in a much better work/life balance and some time to relax and hobby. A few folk I work with already do 3 or 4 days and I know a few more who do a compressed 40-hour week and none of them have any complaints about it.

Our current obsession with the 5+ day week just seem to be wearing everyone out. I can't even comprehend the US hustle culture with side jobs and working 60+ hours a week, since I already feel 40 is too much. I'm not sure it's made worse by the cost of living nonsense or if it's just something people do. Does anyone know any adults who aren't tired?

[skyth]

I've had full-time jobs where I worked 3 or 4 days per week with extended hours. Was kind of nice having the extra time off. Allowed me to get errands done when things were actually open.

[crispy78]

A few places I've worked have instigated a Summer Hours working policy, where you do an extra hour Monday-Thursday and then finish at lunchtime on Friday. That works quite nicely, you often don't notice the extra hour (or are in effect already doing it anyway) but when you leave at lunchtime on Friday you really feel it

[Peregrine]

The only issue with a four day week is that it should be a two day week instead. The 40 hour week was never intended to be a permanent thing, it was supposed to keep going down as productivity increased. And it's pretty clear that in most jobs beyond the menial labor level the only thing cutting the expected weekly hours does is cut the amount of time wasted on inane busywork meetings, scrolling social media while pretending to work, etc. Productivity remains constant and employee happiness improves.

Unfortunately anything less than a 40 hour week means idiot managers would have to admit their complete irrelevance, which means the only way it will ever become the norm is if it is accompanied by pay cuts to treat every job as a part time job.

[herzlos]

I've seen stats saying that office workers are only about 30% productive, and I definitely see that when I'm working in the office. Whether it's distractions, breaks, meetings, conversations, etc I rarely see people doing any actual work.

So I'm sure I get more done from home, and even in the office most people would be able to get 40 hours of work done in 32 if they had the other 8 off to do other stuff.

[Peregrine]

Jun 27, 2024 7:55:42 GMT -5 herzlos said:

I've seen stats saying that office workers are only about 30% productive, and I definitely see that when I'm working in the office. Whether it's distractions, breaks, meetings, conversations, etc I rarely see people doing any actual work.

I'm assuming that 30% is including meetings and such that produce no actual value but technically count as a job duty. Otherwise that seems pretty optimistic, I'd estimate something more like 10% at best (and consider it my goal to get that number even lower).

[pacific]

Jun 27, 2024 7:55:42 GMT -5 herzlos said:

I've seen stats saying that office workers are only about 30% productive, and I definitely see that when I'm working in the office. Whether it's distractions, breaks, meetings, conversations, etc I rarely see people doing any actual work.

So I'm sure I get more done from home, and even in the office most people would be able to get 40 hours of work done in 32 if they had the other 8 off to do other stuff.

Yes that has been my perception as well. I have also read of a study (think this was carried out from a Swedish study) that on average most workers are only productive for a maximum of 6 hours per day, and everything else is a fairly drastic diminishing return. 

When I worked in Korea, it was not uncommon to have 12 hour days. But I would say at least 50% of that was presenteeism - you stayed in work, and were seen to be at your desk, until the boss left. And that included staff falling asleep at their desks! (or being practised at slumping in your chair and falling asleep while staring at the monitor, so you can still appear to be attentive and at your desk). Absolute waste of time, a Korean I spoke to who had moved to Europe was intending to stay away from going back to Korea for just because of this reason. 

[mdgv2]

I wouldn’t say no to compressed hours.

I’m contracted 35 hours a week, currently done over 5 days, with an hour’s lunch.

In the grand scheme of things, doing three days of nine hours and one day of eight hours seems pretty reasonable, and would give me three days off a week.

Of course, I have no significant other, kids or pets, so the only idiot I’m tasked with keep clean, fed and alive is me. If any of that changed, 9 hours of work in a day may not be practical.

[herzlos]

Jul 9, 2024 5:08:57 GMT -5 pacific said:

Jun 27, 2024 7:55:42 GMT -5 herzlos said:

I've seen stats saying that office workers are only about 30% productive, and I definitely see that when I'm working in the office. Whether it's distractions, breaks, meetings, conversations, etc I rarely see people doing any actual work.

So I'm sure I get more done from home, and even in the office most people would be able to get 40 hours of work done in 32 if they had the other 8 off to do other stuff.

Yes that has been my perception as well. I have also read of a study (think this was carried out from a Swedish study) that on average most workers are only productive for a maximum of 6 hours per day, and everything else is a fairly drastic diminishing return.

It definitely happens with everything, there's only so much physical or mental work you can do before productivity drops. Which makes little sense when it comes to something like the video games industry. It's got an awful reputation for crazy deadlines and long hours, where lots of places have sleeping quarters and lounges and stuff, but I suspect that after a normal work day all that's being made are mistakes and burnout.

There's a slightly different perception when it comes to creative jobs. I can sit at my desk all day without typing if I'm thinking about a problem, and often I find taking a break will help solve it. It looks terrible from a management perspective but if I solve a problem quicker by going and gardening for a bit instead of bashing my head against a desk then it's a win. But that's more about return to office, the only relevance to the 4 day week being that it's rare that I'll switch off at the end of a shift so I've got work grinding away in the back of my head on and off for the evening if I'm not doing anything else.

When I worked in Korea, it was not uncommon to have 12 hour days. But I would say at least 50% of that was presenteeism - you stayed in work, and were seen to be at your desk, until the boss left. And that included staff falling asleep at their desks! (or being practised at slumping in your chair and falling asleep while staring at the monitor, so you can still appear to be attentive and at your desk). Absolute waste of time, a Korean I spoke to who had moved to Europe was intending to stay away from going back to Korea for just because of this reason.

Do they have the same work culture as Japan, where you can't speak up about anything and falling asleep at your desk is a commendable sign of how hard you are working? That seems an absolutely awful way to live.

[mdgv2]

My employer does acknowledge we can’t be productive 100% of the time, and we’re encouraged not only to take our full lunch hour, but to go for walks and other breaks when we need it.

Compare to my previous employer, where you were watched like a hawk, even when you smashed your daily targets. After 12 years I’m so spoiled I do need to remind myself how good I’ve got it, even if I could jump ship for a decent payrise.

[herzlos]

That's my fear with jumping ship. I could likely get a decent pay rise but I've got a huge amount of flexibility and autonomy at the moment and losing it would suck.

[mdgv2]

Which I guess if we’re honest, is a solid staff retention policy.

As I’m now 44, I really don’t think I could be arsed finding my feet with a new employer, even within the same industry. Just feels like a ball ache I don’t need to subject myself to.

We also have a pretty kick ass pension. Closest you can get to Final Salary, and if the projections are right? Potentially better than final salary.

Am….am I wearing golden handcuffs?

[herzlos]

How do you manage better than final salary? I'm looking at about a quarter of my salary, but then I'm private sector not long after a switch from salary based to contribution based with terrible contributions.