CommieCanUCK
Ye Olde King of OT
The poster formerly known as feeder
Posts: 979
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Post by CommieCanUCK on Dec 13, 2018 20:03:08 GMT -5
She survived a Tory party vote of no-confidence. If Corbyn thinks the political winds are blowing his way, he could trigger a parliamentary vote of no-confidence and likely win it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2018 22:31:59 GMT -5
She survived a Tory party vote of no-confidence. If Corbyn thinks the political winds are blowing his way, he could trigger a parliamentary vote of no-confidence and likely win it. If Corbyn wins, no more Brexit? He's the anti-Brexit right?
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Post by mrburning on Dec 14, 2018 7:35:34 GMT -5
She survived a Tory party vote of no-confidence. If Corbyn thinks the political winds are blowing his way, he could trigger a parliamentary vote of no-confidence and likely win it. If Corbyn wins, no more Brexit? He's the anti-Brexit right?Jeremy Corbyn has always been anti EU. It is a conviction or value that he doesn't speak up about since the majority of his supporters are Pro EU. (Momentum - who don't really challenge him either).
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CommieCanUCK
Ye Olde King of OT
The poster formerly known as feeder
Posts: 979
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Post by CommieCanUCK on Dec 14, 2018 12:01:04 GMT -5
She survived a Tory party vote of no-confidence. If Corbyn thinks the political winds are blowing his way, he could trigger a parliamentary vote of no-confidence and likely win it. If Corbyn wins, no more Brexit? He's the anti-Brexit right?It's all part of the total farce that Brexit is. Corbyn has always been anti-EU, now he finally has his Brexit mandate, and he's in charge of a party and is supported by voters that are nearly all fervently Remainers. The Tories are a party that was fractured by an internal Leave/Remain schism, and now there is a Brexit mandate, most of the loudest Leavers have kind of gone off the radar and May, who is personally a Remainer, has to try and get a Brexit deal with almost zero leverage. Like I said, a farce of Python-esque proportions.
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Post by mrburning on Dec 14, 2018 14:42:16 GMT -5
Remain AND Leave - Both assumed the referendum would provide and 'IN' result. Multiple 'Ministers for Brexit' resigning, claiming the negotiated settlement they were working toward was wrong.
The Irish border.
A Prime-minister, negotiating with one eye to a bunch of petulant children and the other on the hopelessly deluded. With a team which seemed not to be able to tell the other side what they even wanted.
The grand assumption that negotiation would see the EU renege on its own principles and regulations/Laws.
An opposition that couldn't answer a straight question regarding another referendum. A leader whos position is in direct conflict with the will of his main cheerleaders.
Much more than a farce. The state of UK politics and politicians is absolutely a sign of the times not that the issues across the channel show any other countries politics in a good light.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2018 18:40:38 GMT -5
Remain AND Leave - Both assumed the referendum would provide and 'IN' result. Multiple 'Ministers for Brexit' resigning, claiming the negotiated settlement they were working toward was wrong. The Irish border. A Prime-minister, negotiating with one eye to a bunch of petulant children and the other on the hopelessly deluded. With a team which seemed not to be able to tell the other side what they even wanted. The grand assumption that negotiation would see the EU renege on its own principles and regulations/Laws. An opposition that couldn't answer a straight question regarding another referendum. A leader whos position is in direct conflict with the will of his main cheerleaders. Much more than a farce. The state of UK politics and politicians is absolutely a sign of the times not that the issues across the channel show any other countries politics in a good light. Well... It could be worse... at least you're not dealing with Trump.
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Post by mrburning on Dec 15, 2018 13:39:25 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 20:08:05 GMT -5
Ah, I can smell London burning from here,
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Mar 12, 2019 15:22:41 GMT -5
Can someone explain what it means that the UK wants (or doesn't want) the "Backstop" and how it's important to the EU.
I know it has to do with Ireland and N.Ireland...
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Post by tneva82 on Mar 13, 2019 5:09:24 GMT -5
Can someone explain what it means that the UK wants (or doesn't want) the "Backstop" and how it's important to the EU. I know it has to do with Ireland and N.Ireland... Problem is Ireland and NI have long border between them. If UK leaves custom/trade union and the border is open(no checks) it could be used to bring goods from UK with standards differing from EU into EU(and vice versa). So say UK makes free trade deal with US which involves US food standards being now accepted in UK those foods could be brought from UK into EU unchecked. EU doesn't want those foods. Nor plenty of other stuffs that don't meet EU's standards. Ergo open border like that is not acceptable for EU as that would basically tie EU's standard's into UK's standards or force EU to set up border checks between ireland and rest of EU making ireland sort of sub-member. Also incidentally people could move between 2 sides at will. Funnily enough this would mean UK wouldn't really be taking control of their borders as technically anybody from EU could move into anywhere in UK at will via NI border(and vice versa).
However harder border is badly opposed in UK and particularly between irelands as those 2 countries are quite linked and indeed person living in Ireland and working at NI or reverse is quite common. And before there were literally armed conflicts before borders were opened(called The Troubles). Unsurprisingly return of those bad old times is not idea that appeals...
Nobody has come up with idea that prevents differing standard goods moving between the two countries as well as people without right without border measurements. Ergo the backstop which is insurance in case permanent solution can't be agreed with. If that kicks in for EU minimum north ireland stays in EU standards. This would cause border between NI and rest of UK though which is red flag. So current version is whole UK stays. Ie UK agrees to follow EU standards and can't make trade deals with other countries that would bring in goods that break standards. So no free trade deal with US that involves bringing in US foods that don't meet EU standards.
This is red flag for brexiteers though as as present UK would be tied to those standads until permanent solution that makes insurance unneeded is made. They got agreed that if EU in future talks is doing it in bad faith(ie not even intending to make a deal but just keep UK in the backstop forever) the UK can just kill the backstop(restoring hard border requirement).
So basically EU wants to make sure their single market area doesn't get compromised by having open border with no checks allowing non-standard complying goods coming in. UK wants ability to make trade deals including for items not meeting EU standards and remove free movement of people. Without introducing border control between NI and Ireland. Good luck with that! This is good real life example of unstoppable force colliding with immovable object.
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Post by A Town Called Malus on Mar 13, 2019 5:12:14 GMT -5
The Good Friday Agreement, the treaty between the Republic of Ireland and the UK which was negotiated to end the violence in Northern Ireland (The Troubles), requires an open border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.
Ireland is an EU member. The idiotic UK government has said it wants out of the Customs Union. This means that all trade from the EU to the UK has to undergo customs checks. This includes everything crossing the Irish border. The only way to enforce that is to put up a hard border, which violates the GFA. Putting up a hard border between the two is also impossible as there's around 275 crossing points on the border between Eire and N. Ireland, which would all need to be manned to ensure custom checks are carried out. In contrast there are 48 crossing points between the US and Mexico and 119 between the US and Canada, so the border between Eire and Northern Ireland has more crossing points than the entire USA with its neighbours combined.
The "backstop" is effectively an insurance policy which means that no matter what happens in future EU-UK negotiations the Irish border will remain an open border to preserve the GFA. This requires that the UK would have to keep closely aligned with EU customs rules and that there would be regulatory differences between the UK mainland and Northern Ireland. This makes it a no-go with the brexit extremists as it means that the UK would still be under EU regulations with no say on what those regulations are, possibly forever if it cannot negotiate a deal with the EU which satisfies the Irish border requirements. However this backstop only exists if May's deal is accepted. In a no deal scenario there is no backstop, we crash out and have to erect a hard border in Ireland (an impossibility as pointed out earlier).
Basically, this whole issue is because the government is a load of morons who decided to put down red lines that nobody asked for and which are incompatible with its existing agreements with other countries. This entire situation would have been avoided if we simply did not leave the customs union (or the EU as a whole).
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Post by tneva82 on Mar 13, 2019 6:29:33 GMT -5
Basically, this whole issue is because the government is a load of morons who decided to put down red lines that nobody asked for and which are incompatible with its existing agreements with other countries. This entire situation would have been avoided if we simply did not leave the customs union (or the EU as a whole). Or alternatively if Ireland and NI would unite and decide which way to go. UK or EU. That's of course one option but not particularly realistic one. Especially NI leaving UK. UK is hell bent on ensuring nobody leaves UK even if they would want to.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Mar 13, 2019 10:10:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the explanation guys, makes total sense now. The media was worthless in describing the gravity of the situation.
I don't think a hard border is really that necessary, and it seems to me that the EU is a wee bit unreasonable there. I would do the EU custom/border check between Ireland/NI to EU member states. They have an existing process to do that for non-EU members anyway, so it's not something that should incur serious overheads or delays. Hell, I'd make the Ireland/NI the priority of all EU custom/border check process.
But, then again, what do I know... all of this is complicated as all hell.
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semipotentwalrus
Ye Olde King of OT
A somewhat powerful marine mammal.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Mar 13, 2019 10:26:41 GMT -5
So you expect the EU to throw Ireland under the bus to accomodate the Brexiteers? Fuck that. They created the mess, they clean it up. Ireland shouldn't have to suffer because the UK decided to throw a hissyfit. That'd intrude on Ireland's sovereignty, and we can't have that now, can we?*
*Disclaimer: I don't think most Brexiteers give a shit about anyone else's sovereignty. It's all "me, me, me!" on a national level.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Mar 13, 2019 12:03:27 GMT -5
So you expect the EU to throw Ireland under the bus to accomodate the Brexiteers? Fuck that. They created the mess, they clean it up. Ireland shouldn't have to suffer because the UK decided to throw a hissyfit. That'd intrude on Ireland's sovereignty, and we can't have that now, can we?* *Disclaimer: I don't think most Brexiteers give a shit about anyone else's sovereignty. It's all "me, me, me!" on a national level. ...and I can see that this attitude makes it more likely that there would be a hard brexit.
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