nfe
OT Initiate
Posts: 144
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Post by nfe on Feb 20, 2023 6:37:06 GMT -5
No, I can't see them making much progress.
It's funny, I think a pro-independence Labour would be a massive force, since most pro-indy voters are to the economic left of the SNP, and some Labour MSPs are likely inclined towards independence (and there's widespread belief that Kezia Dugdale is) but the leadership is probably even more hardline unionist than it was when it led Better Together.
Indy or not, the best thing Scottish Labour could do would be to formally split from Westminster Labour (who don't care about them anyway).
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Haighus
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Post by Haighus on Feb 20, 2023 6:40:03 GMT -5
No, I can't see them making much progress. It's funny, I think a pro-independence Labour would be a massive force, since most pro-indy voters are to the economic left of the SNP, and some Labour MSPs are likely inclined towards independence (and there's widespread belief that Kezia Dugdale is) but the leadership is probably even more hardline unionist than it was when it led Better Together. Indy or not, the best thing Scottish Labour could do would be to formally split from Westminster Labour (who don't care about them anyway). Hmm. Scottish Labour breaking off would probably be great for them. Could you see a platform of hard devolution with the threat of pro-independence having any legs?
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nfe
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Post by nfe on Feb 20, 2023 6:56:02 GMT -5
Hmm. Scottish Labour breaking off would probably be great for them. Could you see a platform of hard devolution with the threat of pro-independence having any legs? I think it would. Certainly appealed to people in 2014 when BT sold the vow and halted the upwards trend in Yes Vote polling! That said, that's essentially the longstanding Lib Dem position and they've never drawn lots of support. Might be down to famously bad Lib Dem comms, though.
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Haighus
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Post by Haighus on Feb 20, 2023 7:02:42 GMT -5
Hmm. Scottish Labour breaking off would probably be great for them. Could you see a platform of hard devolution with the threat of pro-independence having any legs? I think it would. Certainly appealed to people in 2014 when BT sold the vow and halted the upwards trend in Yes Vote polling! That said, that's essentially the longstanding Lib Dem position and they've never drawn lots of support. Might be down to famously bad Lib Dem comms, though. Interesting. I think that there should also be hard (regional) devolution within England too (into roughly regions of ~5-10 million population with powers equivalent to the devolved nations). I wonder how much Scottish independence would be popular or even necessary if Westminster power was greatly decentralised across the country. More of a federalised structure.
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nfe
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Post by nfe on Feb 20, 2023 8:15:06 GMT -5
I think extensive devolution/federalisation would kill independence stone dead.
There would still be ideological independence campaigners, but a large number of voters are fairly pragmatic about it and are focused on things that could be easily devolved, I think. I'd still be pro-independence, mostly because of defence and foreign policy, and border controls, all of which really have to be reserved, and I think a pretty large number of nationalists would be too, but nowhere near enough to bring it about. Probably drop to Welsh independence sort of numbers.
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Post by maddocgrotsnik on Feb 20, 2023 8:45:22 GMT -5
Even if it goes to Lib Dem’s, I wonder if that’s still to Labour’s advantage.
In terms of potential Coalition, I suspect Lib Dem’s would be more inclined to take a side than the SNP. Certainly on potentially less demanding terms.
Of course, last time Nick Clegg couldn’t get his tongue out the Tory Arsehole. But whilst one is tempted to say “therefore they’d side with Labour”, I’m not at all convinced of that.
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nfe
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Post by nfe on Feb 20, 2023 9:08:07 GMT -5
The SNP would definitely enter a confidence and supply deal with Labour, if not a formal coalition, but Labour would never offer it, so in that sense yes LD gains probably help a little.
That said, the polling I've seen is all re: Holyrood elections, not Westminster, so I don't know if that sees a similar pattern.
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herzlos
Ye Olde King of OT
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Post by herzlos on Mar 6, 2023 8:06:28 GMT -5
A lot of Scotland feel badly betrayed by Labour who have been viewed as Red Tories for a while, which I think is why SNP support exploded when a viable lefty party appeared.
Labour is pretty much non-existent here at the moment and I can't see a change of leadership in the SNP changing that, since Scottish Labour have no reach, no unique selling points and very little momentum.
Some kind of Labour/SNP deal would always be possible; Sturgeon offered it previously but Labour refused due to playing politics (English Labour doesn't want Scotland to leave, and any deal would likely kill of what's left of Scottish Labour).
I think any change of the political landscape will come from the Tories, but I'm wary that they just don't seem to implode in any meaningful way. Already Johnson is back poncing around making a fortune complaining about Sunak.
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Post by maddocgrotsnik on Mar 7, 2023 4:53:53 GMT -5
Fair. Might as well make this a general U.K. politics thread.
No surprise at all Boris “lying, self serving sack of shit” Johnson is trying to get his Dad Knighted. Presumably for “Services To Never Telling Your Child No And Ensuring The Old Boys Network Kept Them Failing Upwards”, rather than any notable contribution to this Septic Isle.
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Post by crispy78 on Mar 7, 2023 11:05:53 GMT -5
The one thing that might be a silver lining there is that the more BJ rampantly takes the piss with his resignation honours list (seriously though, why does someone booted out in disgrace still get to do this?), the more he highlights what a ridiculous archaic system it all is and hopefully hastens the scrapping of the whole bloody mess.
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herzlos
Ye Olde King of OT
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Post by herzlos on Mar 7, 2023 16:28:50 GMT -5
It's the same relic of parliamentary protocol where you have to pretend the other member is honourable, and you'll get in more trouble for calling someone a liar than for lying. You're supposed to suggest politely that they "misspoke" or "misremembered".
As such, Johnson technically resigned voluntarily and with a more or less clean record - the lockdown party fine had happened, but the enquiry about misleading parliament hadn't concluded.
In other news, the Hancock WhatsApp leak is still going and causing plenty of embarrassment (where it's possible for them to feel it).
What we know so far: 1. Matt Hancock ignored advice about testing in carehomes. 2. Boris Johnson doesn't understand percentages.
and the one that might actually kill the party off this time: 3. They were discussing plans to cull domestic cats in order to prevent the spread of covid.
Letting people die alone in misery is one thing, but killing their beloved fluffy? That's clearly too far.
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herzlos
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Post by herzlos on Mar 10, 2023 17:57:28 GMT -5
Gary Lineker (soccer commentator and one of the BBCs biggest presenters) has been suspended by the impartial* BBC until he apologises for critizing the Governments immigration bill. Co-host Ian Wright has refused to present the show this week in solidarity, so for the first time "Match Of The Day" will run without any host or commentary to "focus on the sport" and has nothing to do with there not being any willing hosts. The BBC are also declining to broadcast a David Attenborough documentary about destruction of nature due to fear of right wing backlash, so it'll only be on iPlayer: www.theguardian.com/media/2023/mar/10/david-attenborough-bbc-wild-isles-episode-rightwing-backlash-fearsWhat political system has the state dictating the media? Fascism? *The same BBC chaired by the guy who got Johnson an £800k loan, is a significant Tory donor and was appointed by the Tories.
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Post by maddocgrotsnik on Mar 11, 2023 6:22:58 GMT -5
Apparently, they’ve had to pull Football Focus, because no one is willing to present it.
I think they’ve really fucked up this time. Whether you agree with Lineker or not, he didn’t say his bit on air. He didn’t use provocative language. But we can’t have people criticising the government, apparently.
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Post by redchimera on Mar 11, 2023 6:47:10 GMT -5
Apparently, they’ve had to pull Football Focus, because no one is willing to present it. I think they’ve really fucked up this time. Whether you agree with Lineker or not, he didn’t say his bit on air. He didn’t use provocative language. But we can’t have people criticising the government, apparently. It's going to be hard for the BBC management to wiggle out of it with any face left. Tim Davie (the Director General) was responsible for the 'no political views' guidelines which has landed them in this mess. It choices are: a) Sack Gary Lineker (and maybe the whole front line of Match of the Day) and face a huge backlash of being patsies of the Government and the right-wing press. b) Let Lineker off, review the guidelines as being too strict on employees who don't work in news/politics and face a storm from the Daily Mail/Telegraph. The Tories will probably start making veiled references to the Charter.
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Post by maddocgrotsnik on Mar 11, 2023 6:58:38 GMT -5
I’m genuinely interested in what the legal position is here, as essentially the BBC are trying to dictate behaviour outside of their studios.
As covered before (I think in another thread) my profession does somewhat limit my freedom of speech. I don’t really tell folk online where I work or what I do. And you can’t find it via Google, or my FB as I don’t have that on my social media. And if I fuck up professionally there can be stiff penalties.
Yet they don’t get to dictate what I post in terms of politics. Provided I leave my leanings at the office door? It’s just not relevant.
I suspect all Lineker would need to do is find evidence of a BBC employee posting support for Government Policy to show this is a one sided attempt to silence fair criticism?
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