Original 40k Deathwing & cultural appropriation

[pacific]

Was going to start this thread on Dakka but I doubt it would get past the politics-censor rule or if it did would last more than a page before it was locked - so here we go! I got into a discussion with someone that was thinking of creating a converted squad of Deathwing terminators, based off the seminal Bill King short story, that featured in the very early 40k lore and the Space Hulk Deathwing expansion. It's a wonderful story (read it if you haven't!) and I think most regard it as being pretty cool, even if it has since been ret-conned (I think) officially. The guy thinking of the project however had a concern that it was 'cultural appropriation' and if it crossed a line. I didn't think it did, but I'm not a Native American (and also I think it was such a cool idea!), so am not best placed to judge perhaps. 

So he was looking at some of the symbols presented here, were they created by the GW team or taken from real-life Native American influences? Obviously a few of them are fabricated, but perhaps not all. 

Then there is this image, which apparently is based on a real-life photo (there was actually a Lame Bear of the Cheyenne!) 

I am sure I remember there was actually a Native American wargamer that used to post on Dakka - sadly I have forgotten his Profile name (I did think it was @disciple of Fate, but I think just someone using the same profile image). He would have probably been the best person to ask, and I know there has been a lot of sensitivity around Native American identity in particular (see the ongoing conflict over sporting teams and imagery), but just wondered what people's thoughts were on this? OK to do if being sensitive and done tastefully? Not OK at all?

Attachments:

[Haighus]

yorknecromancer.wordpress.com/2017/09/03/sci-fi-magpies/

I defer to an excellent and nuanced treatise on the matter by the thoughtful York Necromancer. It is a shame they have stopped writing these, but I think it was draining them. They specifically reference the Dark Angels example later.

Hope it helps!

[maddocgrotsnik]

I mean…this is gonna depend, isn’t it? Because cultures aren’t homogenous things.

One person of Native American descent may see Deathwing, and be thrilled to recognise elements of the cultural heritage, and accepting as the game is set 38,000 years in the future and is known for the setting’s level of ignorance, they’re not going to be historically accurate. The next might simply not care at all. The next next may see a white, British author and a white, British artist mangling the viewers cultural heritage and take exception to it.

All of them are fair and dare I say it correct responses.

Consider the Kilt. As a Scot, it’s more than just a piece of clothing. I know it was far from invented by Scots, and that clan tartans are a daft relatively recent invention. But I still see it as a cultural icon. And yes, it does piss me off when English blokes (usually loud mouth, braying, rugby playing, public school, thick as fuck, middle class twats) wear it to weddings. Another Scot may simply not give two, aha hoots. And so on and so forth. Because it’s not just my culture, is it? It’s a whole fucking country’s culture.

That being said, cultural appropriation does exist. Of course it does. But the only person with an opinion of any value whatsofuckingever, is going to be an observer from the culture itself. Where Cultural Appropriation gets silly is when it’s some try-hard claiming cultural appropriation on behalf of a culture not their own. Because that’s just inherently embarrassing, and not a little hypocritical.

Sure you’ll see a cultures native dress, style and fashion being worn in a racist manner. But thats….just racism, and you should call it so.

[pacific]

Really interesting article, thanks for posting Haighus. I found it pretty self-indulgent and definitely patronising in places but thought he made some very good points.

I think the advice I tried to give was 'tasteful' and 'thoughtful' - ideally getting the opinion of someone that is a Native American, which I appreciate could be a problem.

And now looking at miniatures for Native American historicals and Terminators has made me want to steal this guys project idea.. but would obviously really try to tread carefully.

[easye]

Let's be honest. All of GW is cultural appropriation, copy right infringement, or intellectual theft of some kind. It is mashing it all together and claiming it is "new" that is the interesting part.

I think if one is worried about such things, I mean really deeply concerned, they should steer clear of GW at all costs.

[pacific]

I actually remember reading the story, back when it was first released, and thinking it was a metaphor for the arrival of Europeans in America and the destruction of the Native American way of life. I have to assume that was part of Bill King's thoughts behind it as part of the creation process, although I have never read his comments on it. And this was so far before Black Library and the situation now where the publisher feels that they need the author's epilogue explaining why they wrote things in a certain way, lest a horde of angry fans descend.

As such, the actions they then take could be seen as a fantastical 'revenge' against occupying invaders, one they were empowered to fight, and to take back their own culture and birth-right. It's something the likes of Marvel has done a few times and quite often with a real-life victimised minority fighting heroically against that oppressor. And, as far as I know, they are often seen as important and empowering.

in the case of Deathwing, does the fact that is was written by a white man, and not a native American, change this?

[maddocgrotsnik]

Again, that’s gonna depend.

If memory serves, Bill King is a fellow Scot. And Scotland is far from without its own woes at the hands of Other. Most recently the Highland Clearances, where Crofters were evicted from their land in favour of hunting estates and stuff. So there could be a cypher within a cypher in okay.

But I’d also caution about overthinking this. As per my earlier post? If someone of Native American descent has no issue, doesn’t care, or takes issue? That’s their choice and their right as the potentially offended party. What you or I (assuming Dear Reader) think is entirely and distantly secondary. It’s be like someone trying to tell me which bits of Scotlands history I should take to heart. Not even my parents can tell me that. Mum can’t, because being all dead and stuff she can’t tell anyone anything. Dad can’t, because My Life isn’t his.

[nfe]

Mar 31, 2023 10:17:45 GMT -5 maddocgrotsnik said:

Consider the Kilt. As a Scot, it’s more than just a piece of clothing. I know it was far from invented by Scots, and that clan tartans are a daft relatively recent invention. But I still see it as a cultural icon. And yes, it does piss me off when English blokes (usually loud mouth, braying, rugby playing, public school, thick as fuck, middle class twats) wear it to weddings. Another Scot may simply not give two, aha hoots. And so on and so forth. Because it’s not just my culture, is it? It’s a whole fucking country’s culture.

I don't think this is a good analogy. Scots have never been an oppressed ethnic group. We were a significant European power and then a significant colonial power. Most of our modern inequitable power relations are the result of us trying to be a bigger colonial power and fucking it up. The relationship between English people wearing kilts and Scots (or folks in the US telling me they're Scottish at every opportunity when I'm at conferences) is in no way comparable to the relationship between white people and indigenous Americans.

There's a difference between adopting the habits, norms, and tropes of people who are your relative equal in terms of sociocultural stratification, and those who you, or people in your position, have oppressed. And all of that is quite aside from the social construction of different types clothes. Kilts don't mean the same to Scots, or at least to almost every single one of us, as, say, particular headdresses do to particular tribes. English people in kilts are not at all like white folks sticking headdresses on characters to give them an ethnicky flair or to associate them with (stereotypical and often offensive) general perceptions of other non-indigenous consumers, whatever the intentions of the creator.

[maddocgrotsnik]

Erm….that’s not entirely accurate, is it?

The oppression isn’t recent, but it has happened. Such as the Kilt being banned on pain of death. It’s also going to vary depending on personal experience and how much ignorance a person has been exposed to.

But most importantly, read the whole of my post, where I explain what’s offensive to one isn’t necessarily offensive to the other, and neither party, so long as they come from the same culture, is wrong.

[nfe]

Apr 15, 2023 6:30:47 GMT -5 maddocgrotsnik said:

Erm….that’s not entirely accurate, is it?

The oppression isn’t recent, but it has happened. Such as the Kilt being banned on pain of death.

On pain of death?! No. Not a thing that ever happened. You could be jailed, or exiled for a second offence, during the Jacobite risings, for wearing highland dress. This was an attack on highland clans perpetrated by the UK government with the approval of most lowland Scots. I think it's a challenge to present it as the oppression an ethnic group. I think it was definitely the oppression of a political position, though I guess some historians would argue that it was a reasonable constraints on a rebellion.

It’s also going to vary depending on personal experience and how much ignorance a person has been exposed to.

But most importantly, read the whole of my post, where I explain what’s offensive to one isn’t necessarily offensive to the other, and neither party, so long as they come from the same culture, is wrong.

Challenging one part of your post doesn't mean I disagree with all of it, man, and the rest doesn't mean the comparison is any less silly, or potentially offensive. Scots positioning ourselves as victims in some way comparable to colonised people's is tedious nonsense. Particularly so indigenous Americans, actually, given the long, drawn out sagas we've had about returning things like gifts Buffalo Bill's shows brought to Scotland.