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Post by adurot on Aug 6, 2019 3:15:53 GMT -5
Trump is six months late paying El Paso for a rally he held there to the tune of over $500,000.
MoscowMitch tweeted a photo of tombstones with his opponents’ names on them hours after the El Paso shooting.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 4:10:15 GMT -5
Of course, Republicans and conservative blame Rock Music Heavy Metal Music Dungeons and Dragons Rap Music Violent Video Games. Anything to not address the actual issues of mental healthcare, availability and normalization of fire arms, demonization of political opponents and radicalization of view points. Not this Republican/Conservative. Violent video games is a red herring. The issue is most certainly multi-facet, such as mental health and lack of family/social support structures. Whemb, I'm astonished, you've at long last, said something I completely agree with. Which frankly worries me. |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Aug 6, 2019 4:31:12 GMT -5
Mental health is only a small part, some research into mass shooting has shown that only 1 out of 5 perpetrators suffer from mental health issues beyond what most of us encounter in our own lifetime. Tackling this together with a tougher approach on domestic terrorism might tackle perhaps 2 out of every 5 shootings if you want to be really positive about it.
Sadly it also boils down to access to guns, which is the unsolvable problem. Easy access or ownership of them leads to a more severe escalation of stressful episodes. However much the Dems hammer on reducing availability on guns this is a dead end for the foreseeable future.
Mental illness is only a small facet, frequently pushed by Republicans and Trump as the issue to blame. But what legislation have they so far introduced to tackle this issue alone? For the last 2.5 years Trump and his party have only paid lip service to legislating their own scapegoat.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Aug 6, 2019 4:34:07 GMT -5
Trump is six months late paying El Paso for a rally he held there to the tune of over $500,000. MoscowMitch tweeted a photo of tombstones with his opponents’ names on them hours after the El Paso shooting. You would think with all the stiffing he has done from the day he started campaigning that they would start charging him up front. |
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Aug 6, 2019 6:30:30 GMT -5
Mental health is a red herring. Do you seriously think the rest of the world have no issues with mental health? I can assure you that we have our own issues in that regard, but we don't shoot each other up to anywhere near the same extent as you guys in the US.
It's guns. Guns guns guns. There simply is no way around that fact.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Aug 6, 2019 10:31:05 GMT -5
Mental health is a red herring. Do you seriously think the rest of the world have no issues with mental health? I can assure you that we have our own issues in that regard, but we don't shoot each other up to anywhere near the same extent as you guys in the US. It's guns. Guns guns guns. There simply is no way around that fact. No. Guns is an inanimate object. Violent video games is an inanimate object. It's not political rhetoric. We are the most armed civilian on the planet and our murder rate is still declining. (while massed shooting is increasing a bit) So having more access to guns isn't what making these mass shooters happen. There's something fundamentally happening to our society that is causing these assholes to devalue life and to perpetuate these heinous crimes. You have to be mentally unstable in some form to snuff out a complete stranger. Whether it's a degradation of the family unit, or being bullied, or desire to be infamous, gang-life, or what have yous... its a multi-faceted issue that requires comprehensive approach. Even in unicorn land, banning guns won't stop this assholes. It's not the gun that sitting in my safe that makes it dangerous. It's about the person who's pulling the trigger. |
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Aug 6, 2019 10:38:29 GMT -5
Not this Republican/Conservative. Violent video games is a red herring. The issue is most certainly multi-facet, such as mental health and lack of family/social support structures. Whemb, I'm astonished, you've at long last, said something I completely agree with. Which frankly worries me. 'Tis okay. My crusty, salty exterior hides the amiable, gooey teddy bear.  I wonder the discussions of guncontrol/shooting should go to you other thread?? |
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Aug 6, 2019 10:44:53 GMT -5
Posted w/o comment: www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-08-04/el-paso-dayton-gilroy-mass-shooters-dataOp-Ed: We have studied every mass shooting since 1966. Here’s what we’ve learned about the shooters In the last week, more than 30 people have died in three separate mass shootings in Gilroy, El Paso and Dayton, Ohio. We believe that analyzing and understanding data about who commits such massacres can help prevent more lives being lost. For two years, we’ve been studying the life histories of mass shooters in the United States for a project funded by the National Institute of Justice, the research arm of the U.S. Department of Justice. We’ve built a database dating back to 1966 of every mass shooter who shot and killed four or more people in a public place, and every shooting incident at schools, workplaces, and places of worship since 1999. We’ve interviewed incarcerated perpetrators and their families, shooting survivors and first responders. We’ve read media and social media, manifestos, suicide notes, trial transcripts and medical records. Our goal has been to find new, data-driven pathways for preventing such shootings. Although we haven’t found that mass shooters are all alike, our data do reveal four commonalities among the perpetrators of nearly all the mass shootings we studied. First, the vast majority of mass shooters in our study experienced early childhood trauma and exposure to violence at a young age. The nature of their exposure included parental suicide, physical or sexual abuse, neglect, domestic violence, and/or severe bullying. The trauma was often a precursor to mental health concerns, including depression, anxiety, thought disorders or suicidality. Second, practically every mass shooter we studied had reached an identifiable crisis point in the weeks or months leading up to the shooting. They often had become angry and despondent because of a specific grievance. For workplace shooters, a change in job status was frequently the trigger. For shooters in other contexts, relationship rejection or loss often played a role. Such crises were, in many cases, communicated to others through a marked change in behavior, an expression of suicidal thoughts or plans, or specific threats of violence. Third, most of the shooters had studied the actions of other shooters and sought validation for their motives. People in crisis have always existed. But in the age of 24-hour rolling news and social media, there are scripts to follow that promise notoriety in death. Societal fear and fascination with mass shootings partly drives the motivation to commit them. Hence, as we have seen in the last week, mass shootings tend to come in clusters. They are socially contagious. Perpetrators study other perpetrators and model their acts after previous shootings. Many are radicalized online in their search for validation from others that their will to murder is justified. Fourth, the shooters all had the means to carry out their plans. Once someone decides life is no longer worth living and that murdering others would be a proper revenge, only means and opportunity stand in the way of another mass shooting. Is an appropriate shooting site accessible? Can the would-be shooter obtain firearms? In 80% of school shootings, perpetrators got their weapons from family members, according to our data. Workplace shooters tended to use handguns they legally owned. Other public shooters were more likely to acquire them illegally. So what do these commonalities tell us about how to prevent future shootings? One step needs to be depriving potential shooters of the means to carry out their plans. Potential shooting sites can be made less accessible with visible security measures such as metal detectors and police officers. And weapons need to be better controlled, through age restrictions, permit-to-purchase licensing, universal background checks, safe storage campaigns and red-flag laws — measures that help control firearm access for vulnerable individuals or people in crisis. Another step is to try to make it more difficult for potential perpetrators to find validation for their planned actions. Media campaigns like #nonotoriety are helping starve perpetrators of the oxygen of publicity, and technology companies are increasingly being held accountable for facilitating mass violence. But we all can slow the spread of mass shootings by changing how we consume, produce, and distribute violent content on media and social media. Don’t like or share violent content. Don’t read or share killers’ manifestos and other hate screeds posted on the internet. We also need to study our current approaches. For example, do lockdown and active shooter drills help children prepare for the worst or hand potential shooters the script for mass violence by normalizing or rehearsing it? We also need to, as a society, be more proactive. Most mass public shooters are suicidal, and their crises are often well known to others before the shooting occurs. The vast majority of mass shooters leak their plans ahead of time. People who see or sense something is wrong, however, may not always say something to someone owing to the absence of clear reporting protocols or fear of overreaction and unduly labeling a person as a potential threat. Proactive violence prevention starts with schools, colleges, churches and employers initiating conversations about mental health and establishing systems for identifying individuals in crisis, reporting concerns and reaching out — not with punitive measures but with resources and long-term intervention. Everyone should be trained to recognize the signs of a crisis. Proactivity needs to extend also to the traumas in early life that are common to so many mass shooters. Those early exposures to violence need addressing when they happen with ready access to social services and high-quality, affordable mental health treatment in the community. School counselors and social workers, employee wellness programs, projects that teach resilience and social emotional learning, and policies and practices that decrease the stigma around mental illness will not just help prevent mass shootings, but will also help promote the social and emotional success of all Americans. Our data show that mass shooters have much in common. Instead of simply rehearsing for the inevitable, we need to use that data to drive effective prevention strategies. |
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Aug 6, 2019 10:45:30 GMT -5
Mental health is a red herring. Do you seriously think the rest of the world have no issues with mental health? I can assure you that we have our own issues in that regard, but we don't shoot each other up to anywhere near the same extent as you guys in the US. It's guns. Guns guns guns. There simply is no way around that fact. No. Guns is an inanimate object. Violent video games is an inanimate object. It's not political rhetoric. We are the most armed civilian on the planet and our murder rate is still declining. (while massed shooting is increasing a bit) So having more access to guns isn't what making these mass shooters happen. There's something fundamentally happening to our society that is causing these assholes to devalue life and to perpetuate these heinous crimes. You have to be mentally unstable in some form to snuff out a complete stranger. Whether it's a degradation of the family unit, or being bullied, or desire to be infamous, gang-life, or what have yous... its a multi-faceted issue that requires comprehensive approach. Even in unicorn land, banning guns won't stop this assholes. It's not the gun that sitting in my safe that makes it dangerous. It's about the person who's pulling the trigger. Interesting way to deny every shooter's manifesto so far. Wouldn't want to have to admit your xenophobic rhetoric might be bad, eh? |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Aug 6, 2019 10:50:31 GMT -5
This is just getting silly. There is nothing fundamentally happening in the US that is different to other Western countries when it comes to the changes you list (again only in 1/5th of the cases is mental illness the deciding factor). The difference is easy access to firearms. The people are the problem yes, but guns give them an extremely easy outlet to act on impulses (when talking non extremist violence) that just isn't there without guns. Sure there are other ways, but those are far more involved or complicated. You have to recognize that the gun is an extremely effective weapon for mass murder if someone is inclined to do so. Building a bomb or going out and trying to knife 50 people is just far more complicated for most of these perpetrators.
Otherwise its just demonizing mental illness or arguing that Americans are somehow uniquely homicidal compared to the rest of the world.
Mass shootings are not unique to the US, the horrific rate is.
Why is this so hard to admit? Just say that you think it is an acceptable price for their availability, however unpopular, it at least is honest.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Aug 6, 2019 10:59:58 GMT -5
This is just getting silly. There is nothing fundamentally happening in the US that is different to other Western countries when it comes to the changes you list (again only in 1/5th of the cases is mental illness the deciding factor). The difference is easy access to firearms. The people are the problem yes, but guns give them an extremely easy outlet to act on impulses (when talking non extremist violence) that just isn't there without guns. Sure there are other ways, but those are far more involved or complicated. You have to recognize that the gun is an extremely effective weapon for mass murder if someone is inclined to do so. Building a bomb or going out and trying to knife 50 people is just far more complicated for most of these perpetrators. Otherwise its just demonizing mental illness or arguing that Americans are somehow uniquely homicidal compared to the rest of the world. Recognizing the impact of mental illness isn't demonizing. If we want to mitigate Mass shooting like the three recent ones: 1) Stop giving these people the infamy they crave. There's a contagion "copy cat" factor here. The media need to report the facts and steer away from the sensational op-ed feeding frenzy. 2) I'm okay with feds/states monitor online activity for warning signs. There have been three mass killings now tied to websites where individuals congregate to celebrate such atrocities. The government needs to monitor these sites and pay folks a visit when they give off warning signs. 3) Yes, keep guns away from dangerous people. But also observe the individual's due process rights. I'm okay with the idea of "red flag" laws, as long as it is carefully constructed with built-in due process. As long we recognize that such a system isn't perfect. (ie, the Parkland Shooter and VA shooter, the feds dropped the ball that would've prevented shooter from buying the guns>) |
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Aug 6, 2019 11:06:28 GMT -5
The cause of most of these shootings is not mental illness. It's the emboldening of racists and bigots.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Aug 6, 2019 11:16:46 GMT -5
Again, 4/5ths of mass shooters don't suffer from mental illness, they deal with the same crap almost all of us face at one point in our life. And mentally ill people in Europe don't kill at anywhere near the volume they do in the US.
1) Infamy is a terrible argument for guns, the OC bombing is one of the most infamous attacks, yet how many successfull copy cats has he had? Guns make it easy for copy cats. It might inspire the next shooter, but doesn't facilitate it.
2) This is were we agree, but Trump seems to disagree. His cookie cutter speech mentioned it, but he has made many promises he has not kept in aftermaths such as these. Just crack down on it as hard as jihadist terrorism, but that would be unpalatable to a good portion of US voters.
3) The problem is there are far too many people buying and/or already owning guns that you have no way of checking in on. You would need something like mandatory mental health checks to catch a guy that suddenly shoots up his workplace after getting fired or such. But again, this seems to be unpalatable. Any system of checks when buying is going to rely on the buyer actively showing symptoms then and there, instead of those surfacing 10 years after.
Guns are not the trigger to these types of episodes, I can agree on that, but they are the cause of escalation and the high death toll. Even if you could create an almost foolproof system for catching these cases, many would still die from perpetrators slipping through the cracks.
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Post by whemblycthulhu on Aug 6, 2019 11:40:31 GMT -5
So... just to be clear. What are you advocating for?
EDIT: where are you getting that 1/5 aren't caused by mental illness. I just posted a link from LA times about a study that refutes that.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Aug 6, 2019 11:52:23 GMT -5
www.washingtonpost.com/health/2019/08/05/is-mental-illness-causing-americas-mass-shootings-no-research-shows/Note that I said 1/5 is caused by, not not. Furthermore, note that your source says nothing about prevalence of mental illness or if it is the deciding factor, just 'trauma' being a potential precursor to mental illness, but I think almost anyone here can tick one of the trauma boxes the LA Times article mentions. Personally I tick two! Edit: what I'm advocating for to curb extremism is tearing off part of the first amendment, which most would think heresy. For example, these people on 8chan pushing each other on and giving advice? Hold them legally responsible as an accessory to murder or for incitement, these people do it together. For your 'regular' mass shooting, I can't advocate for anything besides less guns really unless you want mandatory mental health check ups for every gun owner. For example, getting a divorce? Fired? Financial issues? Etc etc. All stressers that should then force the owner to go into a mandatory program with mental health professionals (note this also helps suicide and not just murder). But that is completely unfeasible, there just isn't an approach that wouldn't be incredibly invasive one way or the other. The authors of the LA times are basically asking everyone to become mental health professionals and recognize the signs. Their solutions are as much pie in the sky politically speaking.
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