US and NA Politics (General)

[carlo87]

Jun 2, 2020 9:43:40 GMT -5 semipotentwalrus said:

Fortunately the Geneva Convention doesn't give a shit if it's figurative or literal. "Rule 46. Ordering that no quarter will be given, threatening an adversary therewith or conducting hostilities on this basis is prohibited."

I'm going to go ahead and agree with hatoflords here and say that this is "fucking idiotic". The guy is grandstanding and is a douche.

That being said the Geneva Convention doesn't actually apply, regardless of the moral implication that is should apply, or at least be a moral compass here. It doesn't apply to internal conflicts of this nature within a single country. Also in Rule 46 the duty to grant quarter is a basic rule that prohibits attacking a person recognized as "hors de combat" in combat situations on the battlefield. This is similar the same loophole in the Hague convention that allows countries to use hollow points on their own citizens, but not against the enemy in combat.

It also doesn't mean that the statement itself is necessarily legal either. Other laws very well may have this covered. I think anyone that suffered injury/loss because of that order would have a good case against him. 

[Disciple of Fate]

The Geneva Convention would most certainly apply, because the moment the military starts shooting civilians is when you have a civil war on your hands. Which clearly is covered by Article 3 of the Convention.

Hollow point is useable in a law enforcement capacity, because law enforcement falls outside of the scope. But the military is not counted under law enforcement.

[CommieCanUCK]

Geneva convention, etc, is academic. What really matters when it comes to law is that it is enforced. It is abundantly clear that the GOP have no interest in actually enforcing the law as written, merely to wield it like a weapon to consolidate their power.

[Disciple of Fate]

Of course, but a lot of laws are academic in that sense, they only work when enforced. Even with US law as opposed to the international variety, it is clear that some are more equal than others when it comes to application.

[steelmage99]

It is once again time to point out the obvious.

President Trump is a weak person's idea of a strong person, a poor persons idea of a rich person and a dumb person's idea of a smart person.

[hatoflords]

So, apparently Mattis had enough after the 'dominate the battlespace' nonsense and has publicly denounced Donald Trump:

In Union There Is Strength

I have watched this week’s unfolding events, angry and appalled. The words “Equal Justice Under Law” are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation.

When I joined the military, some 50 years ago, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.

We must reject any thinking of our cities as a “battlespace” that our uniformed military is called upon to “dominate.” At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict—between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part. Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders who best understand their communities and are answerable to them.

James Madison wrote in Federalist 14 that “America united with a handful of troops, or without a single soldier, exhibits a more forbidding posture to foreign ambition than America disunited, with a hundred thousand veterans ready for combat.” We do not need to militarize our response to protests. We need to unite around a common purpose. And it starts by guaranteeing that all of us are equal before the law.

Instructions given by the military departments to our troops before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that “The Nazi slogan for destroying us…was ‘Divide and Conquer.’ Our American answer is ‘In Union there is Strength.’” We must summon that unity to surmount this crisis—confident that we are better than our politics.

Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.

We can come through this trying time stronger, and with a renewed sense of purpose and respect for one another. The pandemic has shown us that it is not only our troops who are willing to offer the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the community. Americans in hospitals, grocery stores, post offices, and elsewhere have put their lives on the line in order to serve their fellow citizens and their country. We know that we are better than the abuse of executive authority that we witnessed in Lafayette Square. We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution. At the same time, we must remember Lincoln’s “better angels,” and listen to them, as we work to unite.

Only by adopting a new path—which means, in truth, returning to the original path of our founding ideals—will we again be a country admired and respected at home and abroad.

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/

[dabbler]

Maybe he could have said or done something while he was employed instead of waiting until months later. I hate that these people come out of the woodwork after "oh god he's the worst we're better than this America" but they were just fine to hook their wagon to him until their specific coupling came unstuck? Fuck em. Mattis deserves the blame for how much how his acceptance of Trump and silence until now strengthened Trump with some. Because everyone who made their mind up to jump on the train because of Mattis? Maybe if he hadn't been so gutless for so long they wouldn't be as in deep or as committed to the fucked thinking that comes with being a die-hard Trump fan

[hatoflords]

I don't really disagree with why Mattis did what he did. The military should be extremely cautious about undermining civilian leadership, even if they think they're idiots. Remember McCrystal? It's something that should never be done lightly. I do wish Mattis had said something earlier. It was obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together he was only in the administration because someone sane needed to be in it and he stuck in there as long as he could. I'm not unsympathetic.

I think though if he wants this moment to matter it needs to amount to more than just a single letter to the editor that will be forgotten in a few weeks.

[lonestarr777]

Jun 4, 2020 1:45:31 GMT -5 hatoflords said:

I don't really disagree with why Mattis did what he did. The military should be extremely cautious about undermining civilian leadership, even if they think they're idiots. Remember McCrystal? It's something that should never be done lightly. I do wish Mattis had said something earlier. It was obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together he was only in the administration because someone sane needed to be in it and he stuck in there as long as he could. I'm not unsympathetic.

I think though if he wants this moment to matter it needs to amount to more than just a single letter to the editor that will be forgotten in a few weeks.

But that is exactly why his words are hollow and empty. Mattis had every opportunity to stand up and tell everyone who would listen how unfit this piece of shit is. Instead he played the game and he's still playing the game. There won't be any follow up or push beyond this letter of condemnation. He simply wants to try and clear his conscious for his part in making this monster. It's like if Igor wrote a strongly worded letter speaking out against Dr. Frankenstein after the monster murdered the little girl.

[semipotentwalrus]

On the upside, it gets harder and harder to yell "hyperbole!" when even Mattis compares Trump to the Nazis.

[mikosann]

Jun 4, 2020 2:47:58 GMT -5 lonestarr777 said:

Jun 4, 2020 1:45:31 GMT -5 hatoflords said:

I don't really disagree with why Mattis did what he did. The military should be extremely cautious about undermining civilian leadership, even if they think they're idiots. Remember McCrystal? It's something that should never be done lightly. I do wish Mattis had said something earlier. It was obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together he was only in the administration because someone sane needed to be in it and he stuck in there as long as he could. I'm not unsympathetic.

I think though if he wants this moment to matter it needs to amount to more than just a single letter to the editor that will be forgotten in a few weeks.

But that is exactly why his words are hollow and empty. Mattis had every opportunity to stand up and tell everyone who would listen how unfit this piece of shit is. Instead he played the game and he's still playing the game. There won't be any follow up or push beyond this letter of condemnation. He simply wants to try and clear his conscious for his part in making this monster. It's like if Igor wrote a strongly worded letter speaking out against Dr. Frankenstein after the monster murdered the little girl.

I'm sure Mattis thought he could be more effective countering Trumps authoritarian impulses from within the administration at first.  Hard to fault him for that, it really was the only way given the Orange Julius penchant for firing folks with half a brain.  To what degree he was effective is certainly up for debate.  Better late than never I guess is all I'm saying.  As bad as I want Dump out of office, not sure being pushed out by the military is the way to go...  I'd much rather have the spineless boot lickers in the GOP do the right thing because without any allies in Congress he wouldn't be able to get away with any of the shenanigans he has, he would have been kicked out of office via impeachment.

[semipotentwalrus]

Police attacking medical staff. The US truly currently is marching under the banner of a rat's anus.

[steelmage99]

People who routinely describe abortion as "murder" and law enforcement investigations as "treason".....suddenly clutch their pearls in disbelief, as pepper spray munitions and irritant gas is described as "tear gas".
Radical Evangelical Conservatives is nothing but consistently inconsistent.

[Disciple of Fate]

This bunker bitch meme is becoming more true by the minute. It is fucking insane that you have security barriers around the White House with combat troops and sharpshooters to hold off peaceful protesters. Is this Washington or Damascus?

Guess he finally managed to build a wall though...

[adurot]