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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2020 20:06:27 GMT -5
Wow, 13 lone wolves caught just like that. Oh, I'm fairly sure it's going to get bigger than that.
Trump's Cult is already trying to shift blame and paint them as Antifa or secret liberals and deny the anti government movements in the US are on the right.
Anyone able to process how the libs are in favor of too much government while simultaneously against all government?
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Oct 8, 2020 20:44:46 GMT -5
Wow, 13 lone wolves caught just like that. Oh, I'm fairly sure it's going to get bigger than that.
Trump's Cult is already trying to shift blame and paint them as Antifa or secret liberals and deny the anti government movements in the US are on the right.
Anyone able to process how the libs are in favor of too much government while simultaneously against all government?
I'm sure our local trumptards can tell us.
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Post by hatoflords on Oct 8, 2020 21:31:47 GMT -5
Anyone able to process how the libs are in favor of too much government while simultaneously against all government?
Sounds like the incoherence of current American conservatism to me.
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Post by steelmage99 on Oct 9, 2020 9:28:01 GMT -5
I don't know how the man that killed 200.000 Americans will insult and disparage the organisation that fed 1.000.000 people, but I am sure he will surprise us.
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Post by Least censored on the planet! on Oct 9, 2020 10:45:07 GMT -5
Well
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Post by tannhauser42 on Oct 9, 2020 11:02:58 GMT -5
Yeah, I read that he's trying to do that stupid semantic hair-splitting argument that "we're not a democracy we're a constitutional republic". Except, that's really just a stupid argument to make because only political scientists/historians care about such technicalities. The rest of the human race doesn't talk about government like that.
There's never any way a politician can say such things without looking bad.
And for a GOP senator to say such things when a GOP president is threatening to refuse election results, it looks REALLY BAD.
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Post by hatoflords on Oct 9, 2020 11:04:14 GMT -5
Yeah, I read that he's trying to do that stupid semantic hair-splitting argument that "we're not a democracy we're a constitutional republic". His full statement is actually much worse. He's basically pitching an argument for authoritarian one party rule on the basis that American democracy doesn't work.
I don't think he's wrong about why it doesn't work, but it's awfully rich come from someone in the GOF and the primary drivers of what is driving it into unworkability.
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Post by Least censored on the planet! on Oct 9, 2020 11:16:44 GMT -5
The rest of the human race doesn't talk about government like that. Whembly does, but the jury is still out on whether he is human I think. His full statement is actually much worse. He's basically pitching an argument for authoritarian one party rule on the basis that American democracy doesn't work.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Oct 9, 2020 11:20:21 GMT -5
The Covid must have reached his brain, time to pull the plug.
Funny how he doesn't talk about how Trump being president wasn't the objective of the EC.
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Post by Least censored on the planet! on Oct 9, 2020 11:22:36 GMT -5
I like the idea that we need liberty without democracy, that make total sense as it's what undemocratic regime are known for!
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Oct 9, 2020 11:24:06 GMT -5
I like the idea that we need liberty without democracy, that make total sense as it's what undemocratic regime are known for! Everyone knows the glorious People's Republic of North Korea is the bestest and free-est country in the world, even Trump knows that.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Oct 9, 2020 11:42:52 GMT -5
Yeah, I read that he's trying to do that stupid semantic hair-splitting argument that "we're not a democracy we're a constitutional republic". Except, that's really just a stupid argument to make because only political scientists/historians care about such technicalities.
And, as a political scientist, it's wrong anyway unless you define "democracy" in an intentionally stupid way.
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Post by hatoflords on Oct 9, 2020 11:46:23 GMT -5
I like the idea that we need liberty without democracy, that make total sense as it's what undemocratic regime are known for! It makes sense when you realize that to Republicans and conservatives, liberty is completely defined as 'the government doesn't but itself into my life', which is what I think most people would define liberty as. The point where they become authoritarians is when they strictly define it as 'the government doesn't but itself into my life, and protects me from all these other animals running around try to take my stuff'. It's a completely selfish and self-serving definition, in which only they are free and everyone else is a threat to their freedom that must be controlled.
Democracy is thus a threat, because if you and yours are the minority, the majority will use democracy to take from you. The self-serving cry that Democrats should just let Republicans have their way was self-serving but correct. They have in fact abandoned belief in democracy because they are becoming the minority and they know it.
Which very well might be how things go now. The minority is always in a precarious position and trying to impose minority rule with an authoritarian bent will simply become justification to strip the minority of it's protections lest the minority become an oppressor. Conservatives are putting in the line of fire the very mechanisms that were intended to protect minorities from excessive majority rule by twisting those defense mechanisms into tools of minority rule.
Democrats need to make this stick. The Republicans are authoritarians and only believe in freedom for themselves and no one else. It's unlikely the Democrats will achieve anything meaningful in the next two years even if they win across the board. They have to play the Republican's game now, and make elections existential threats because Republicans have made them such. What fun (sarcasm). In this, a 6-3 supreme court could actually be a boon. The Democrats can run on every court decision and use it to keep people galvanized. If we take the stance that Roe V. Wade is basically doomed, then we end up looking at alternatives that are actually harder for the Court to overturn or for Republicans to fight against. The GOF has a Senate advantage to gain a majority, but it's almost impossible in the current layout for them to ever win a super-majority (that's why they purposefully sabotaged Senate provisions requiring 2/3 majorities).
I suspect this is why the party is being so cagey about court packing and such. They're hoping for a good election in 2020 that will make lesser nuclear options viable. They don't really have a choice now but to pick one but some are less polarizing than expanding the court. If they can expand in the next two elections, they open up a lot of doors. Their still viewing court expansion as a death spiral and don't want to go there (but simultaneously have refused to explicitly rule it out), which offers some hope.
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Post by steelmage99 on Oct 9, 2020 12:23:59 GMT -5
To be precise the US is a federal liberal republican representative democracy.
Federal : A union of partially self-governing provinces, states, or other regions under a central federal government. Liberal : The powers of the majority are exercised within the framework of a representative democracy, but the constitution limits the majority and protects the minority. Republic : A representative democracy with an elected head of state, such as a president, serving for a limited term. Representative Democracy : The people elect representatives to deliberate and decide on legislature.
Saying; "The US isn't a democracy!", is like saying; "A blue Ford pick up truck isn't a car!".
Yes, the Founding Fathers spoke about democracy in very critical tones, but they were talking about direct democracy. They didn't like it because they didn't like the idea of everybody having a say (the basis for the Electoral College), and because as a nation grows it becomes increasingly impractical.
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Post by hatoflords on Oct 9, 2020 12:28:22 GMT -5
To be precise the US is a federal liberal republican representative democracy. Federal : A union of partially self-governing provinces, states, or other regions under a central federal government. Liberal : The powers of the majority are exercised within the framework of a representative democracy, but the constitution limits the majority and protects the minority.Republic : A representative democracy with an elected head of state, such as a president, serving for a limited term. Representative Democracy : The people elect representatives to deliberate and decide on legislature. And I think this is the primary problem.
The Founders never conceived of minority rule as threat. Republicans have twisted the mechanism, using the Senate, the EC, and voting process itself as tools to instill minority rule. There are no safeguards against the pendulum swinging hard the other way. The smart move would probably be for Democrats to accept they will not achieve major progressive reforms even if they win in 2020 and to instead focus on shoring up the guard rails of democracy. Their only viable option is to buy time and do what they can to prevent Republicans from further breaking the system down. They have to stay laser focused on healthcare, Republican sabotage, and justice reforms. Popular measures that are not particularly controversial. Especially because the bottom is likely to fall out on the economy in the next few years and they need room for when Republicans blame their fuck up on them.
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