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Post by tannhauser42 on Nov 5, 2020 20:02:31 GMT -5
br] "Defund the police", as a policy, is sorely needed to make society more equitable and restore justice. As a slogan, it's pants-on-head stupid and whoever coined it might as well be a GOP operative. The problem is that the previous slogan of "reform the police" got us half measures like body cams and a little extra training, and people clapped their hands and said "job's done, police reformed". It's just like the environment and climate change. "Save the planet" worked 20 years ago, but once we got recycle bins at every house, people said "job's done, planet saved" and moved on. We get half measures as a response to the problem, so now you have to resort to a more extreme slogan just to get people to do what they really should have done in the first place.
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kaptinbadrukk
OT Initiate
Watching CBSN and awaiting NYT results pages on every election day
Posts: 79
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Post by kaptinbadrukk on Nov 5, 2020 20:04:09 GMT -5
Trumps on TV again declaring victory. It keeps getting uglier and uglier. How long do you think before someone attacks a vote counting site? This was tweeted 12 hours ago...so it looks like it's already happened.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 5, 2020 20:09:30 GMT -5
And that's what I'ms saying is the issue. Thinking that moderate candidates will win is a mistake. That makes no sense so long as moderates win elections. When I say Democrats were naive going into this election, I mean they're were indulging fantasy. They were never going to flip multiple senate seats in traditionally red states, no matter what they did. Moderate. Not-moderate. Doesn't matter. They were never going to win. With that, gaining 2 seats in the senate from two purple states is probably the best result they were every going to get, while some of the house seats they lost were arguably self inflicted wounds gained by talking about how left the party should or shouldn't go. Moderates are "winning" elections for now, but for how long? As the right continues to radicalize, they're never going to go for a moderate. They may go for a progressive as those policies pick up in popularity, but they'll never go for someone they might have gone for in the 90s again. that ship has sailed. A moderate candidate did not attract any republican voters whatsoever, trump went from 90% republican votes to 93%. Again, being a "moderate" did nothing, and "barely winning" may be "barely losing" next time. Democrats cannot cling to their same failed strategy again and again. It already failed once in 2016, and led to the most damaging presidency we've seen in what, a hundred years? Maybe more? Are they? The same people who say they're popular are the people who were dead wrong about six senate races that weren't even close. Some issues have won in red states and can probably keep winning, yes, but I think the wording issue is the real issue. Yes,they are. Bold is part of my point. Focus on these issues in these areas, and they might be able to keep winning. But pull away from them, and you won't have a chance. One of the reasons Florida went to trump is that the dems pulled away from their minimum wage bill, which passed a 60% approval rate to make it into law. 60%! If the dems had owned it, who knows what the votes may or may not look like. It's possible Florida would have flipped. Or if it didn't, but they keep pushing bills like these, and owning them, maybe it would in the future. No one knows for certain, but we do know if they try and maintain the status quo, they won't gain any points, especially with the more informed younger generation who are becoming more and more politically active and informed. The other side of this issue is the democrats need to pass more actual bills on these issues obviously. Even if it doesn't happen at a federal level, it may happen at a state level or more local levels where possible. They need to start showing that these policies work and make things better. That what they're offering is better than the nebulous, intangible concepts and empty promises that the GOP is offering. And, of course, as we both agree, they need better messaging. What is the distinction between medicare for all and socialized medicine? None. It's the same thing. But this country is stupid and you'll have an easier time convincing Billy Redneck that his life will be better if his healthcare is affordable and you can do that for him than by lecturing him about how socialized medicine produces better national results than private insurance. I think the entire 'left' and 'moderate' thing is a trap. It should be entirely ignored and focused on framing issues to people in ways that make them understand it and support it. Basically, the A plus students of the country need to stop talking like A plus students talking to their professor and start talking like a professor trying to explain something to someone flunking the class. What I'm saying is, stop talking about being moderate or being left entirely. Just stop talking about it. It's turning things in vague ideological debates that favor Republicans ('America isn't communist!') and have nothing to do with the issues. Talk about issues and let the Republicans call names if they want. The labels are stupid, stop wearing them entirely and stop caring. This is an entirely different issue than what I was talking about, but as I already said, I agree with you on. If anything, you go from disagreeing that "progressive" policies are gaining popularity or are popular to making the case that they absolutely are and it's just a matter of messaging which, again, we both agree on. The issue with labels is that the democratic leadership will never stop clinging to them because they fear them, which makes it a juicy spot for the republicans to hit them in. We both agree on that, and more I'm certain, but the labels here, in a forum for discussion, are useful for talking about the present state and possible future state of the party, and differences in generalized policy. br] "Defund the police", as a policy, is sorely needed to make society more equitable and restore justice. As a slogan, it's pants-on-head stupid and whoever coined it might as well be a GOP operative. The problem is that the previous slogan of "reform the police" got us half measures like body cams and a little extra training, and people clapped their hands and said "job's done, police reformed". It's just like the environment and climate change. "Save the planet" worked 20 years ago, but once we got recycle bins at every house, people said "job's done, planet saved" and moved on. We get half measures as a response to the problem, so now you have to resort to a more extreme slogan just to get people to do what they really should have done in the first place. Hooray for compromise! /s
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 5, 2020 20:28:29 GMT -5
Moderates are "winning" elections for now, but for how long? That's like asking 'the Lakers are dominating the NBA, but for how long'? IDK. Until they don't? Right now they are and it's nonsensical to argue a strategy that wins needs to change, especially when we have lots of unknowns. I'm saying progressive issues like Obamacare aren't popular. Progressive issues like the ACA are. I don't think we actually disagree on anything. It's just some talking past each other and maybe a differing definition on what is or isn't a moderate position.
The ACA, higher minimum wage, and police reform are not progressive positions in the current party. They're moderate positions, but the Democrats need to get over their timidity even on moderate issues and need to sell those issue that are at their core in a way that makes sense rather than in a way that sounds pleasant. I think the progressive end of the party is far more interested in signaling how progressive it is than in actually making policy and the signalling is an empty distraction. The party needs the policies progressives and moderates agree on (Healthcare, wages, police reform, environmental protection) but it needs the temprament of moderates and a language that is focused on what wins.
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 5, 2020 20:35:10 GMT -5
Margin in Georgia is 3,486 in Trump's favor and in PA it is 64,266 in Trump's favor. I think PA is still kind of in the air, but shit Biden might actually win Georgia.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 5, 2020 21:00:00 GMT -5
Moderates are "winning" elections for now, but for how long? That's like asking 'the Lakers are dominating the NBA, but for how long'? IDK. Until they don't? Right now they are and it's nonsensical to argue a strategy that wins needs to change, especially when we have lots of unknowns. Not really. We're seeing Biden barely scrape out a win against what has been the worst candidate in nearly all of the US's history, as trump has no policy or positions or ideas or morals and 20-24 years ago, he would have never had a chance at the presidency. (In fact, he failed in 2000.) Instead, it's very close and was leaning towards trump for awhile. If they had been successful in stopping counts earlier, they may have won. If they stopped counting right now as trump apparently wants, Biden will have barely won by like, 5 EC votes. It looks like it'll end up by more than that obviously. My point is that the writing is on the wall. The democrats have been using the same strategy for decades now, since well before 2000 when trump failed the first time. This has been very much a "hold your nose and vote for the least awful person" election for a lot of people, especially younger voters who have had a big turnout compared to the last election. The American public by-and-large wants to see change in a lot of areas, and again, especially the younger voters who are only becoming more and more politically active and informed. So, I suppose you can word it as "the Lakers are dominating the NBA, but for how long? IDK. Until they don't?" if you want, but that's ignoring what are very clear signs that the political landscape is changing, and fast. It's better to try and adapt before you lose than after you lose. Like I said, maybe the next GOP president is trump, but competent. I don't think we actually disagree on anything. It's just some talking past each other and maybe a differing definition on what is or isn't a moderate position. I think this is where the crux of our "disagreement" is. My definition of "moderate" and "progressive" are almost certainly different than yours. I also wouldn't call some things "moderate" or "progressive." For me it's not about "how progressive" someone or thing is (I assume you're referring to people who are essentially nothing but hot air in this respect), but some of it is if it has yet to be accomplished, and what the end goal is. For example, I still consider a higher minimum wage or police reform "progressive" ideas because they still have yet to be accomplished. Meanwhile I consider the ACA a "more progressive but still moderate" idea (though I wouldn't call it "moderate" per-say) or the original police "reform" (i.e. bodycams and crap) because they're not M4A/socialized healthcare/"defund the police"/"progressive enough for today's standards" essentially. Note, I'm not denying that ACA is progressive, because it is, it's just no longer a "progressive issue" to me because it was accomplished (and then neutered as much as possible by republicans) and was always just a stepping stone/bandaid for the actual issue. Also, for anyone who wants to quickly debunk someone's election fraud claims, here's a handy thread that you can refer them to in order to save yourself the effort:
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Nov 5, 2020 22:02:44 GMT -5
Steve Bannon on camera calling for Fauci and FBI director Wray's heads on pikes should Trump win a second term.
Nie wieder.
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 5, 2020 22:06:27 GMT -5
The gap in Georgia is now 1902.
If the rate continues, Biden will win by a few thousand votes.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 6, 2020 1:06:08 GMT -5
As expected, some republicans who are seeing trump about to lose start to distance themselves from him. Kids in cages, sexual assault, rape, fucking the environment, impeachment, the Mueller Report, attacking our allies, cozying up to dictators, tax fraud, lying, looting the government, causing a pandemic, colluding with russia, interfering with the DOJ, threatening and paying off a pornstar, supporting bigotry, supporting neo-nazis, spreading blatant lies, pardoning war criminals, abandoning the Kurds, insulting veterans, sexist remarks, racist remarks, countless indictments against his administration, supporting anti-vaxxers, blatant conflicts of interest, pushing fake cures for the coronavirus, the Muslim travel ban, secret meetings with Putin, the wiretapping bullshit, supporting violence against political opponents, demanding political opponents be jailed, attempting to prevent votes from being counted, attempting to rig the election, claiming voter fraud in 2016, among countless other scandals, crimes, and general shitty human behavior are fine, normal, and qualities you'd want in an elected official. But claiming there's voter fraud in 2020? Well, republicans just can't stand for that! That's a line too far! (God that's a depressing list. I didn't even make it to 2018 for his list of crimes/scandals, just 2015 through early 2017 and what little I can remember)
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Nov 6, 2020 2:14:50 GMT -5
Trumps on TV again declaring victory. It keeps getting uglier and uglier. How long do you think before someone attacks a vote counting site? This was tweeted 12 hours ago...so it looks like it's already happened. Police also arrested a man from Virginia they suspect was traveling to attack the Philadelphia convention center where they are counting. 6abc.com/7689932/
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 6, 2020 4:54:04 GMT -5
GA has flipped to Biden by about 900 votes.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Nov 6, 2020 5:06:59 GMT -5
Now to keep that lead, going over 270 EC votes will only make what comes after easier.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 6, 2020 5:14:09 GMT -5
It'll certainly make contesting the election harder.
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kaptinbadrukk
OT Initiate
Watching CBSN and awaiting NYT results pages on every election day
Posts: 79
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Post by kaptinbadrukk on Nov 6, 2020 7:50:55 GMT -5
YES!!!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!!!! JOE BIDEN LEADS IN GEORGIA BY 1,096 VOTES!!!! AND THERE'S 10,000 ABSENTEE LEFT TO BE COUNTED IN GEORGIA!!!
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kaptinbadrukk
OT Initiate
Watching CBSN and awaiting NYT results pages on every election day
Posts: 79
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Post by kaptinbadrukk on Nov 6, 2020 7:52:46 GMT -5
On another note, Trump's lead in Pennsylvania is down to 18,049 votes.
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