kaptinbadrukk
OT Initiate
Watching CBSN and awaiting NYT results pages on every election day
Posts: 79
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Post by kaptinbadrukk on Nov 5, 2020 16:09:56 GMT -5
Not sure how accurate this is...but according to this tweet, Biden is smashing Trump in PA's Absentee Vote Totals.
Also the margin in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania is 128,204 as of this writing. Saw something on NYT's live updates from November 3, 2020 that officials in Allegheny County PA expected a 150K vote margin for Biden in that county. Looks like their expectations fell short, though there's still 35K absentee ballots outstanding in Allegheny County.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 5, 2020 16:23:27 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not trying to call anyone out or say "X person doesn't want Y" here, just that at some point the dem's will have to stop worrying about corporate interests and actually support the working class with progressive measures, or risk missing out on these positions people seem to actually want. Attempting to run on a moderate platform is no longer viable like it was ~20 years ago, as people on both sides clearly do not want "moderate" or centrist positions or policies.
I'm just worried dem leadership will take the opposite message from this because they managed to barely scrape a presidential win from this election, even if they'll get absolutely nothing done because of the senate and try it again, but fail even worse and we'll get a competent fascist in office this time. I mean, they haven't changed their election strategy in decades. It's always been about "reaching across the aisle and compromising" regardless of the fact their base largely doesn't want them to make compromises or deals with fascists and bigots.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Nov 5, 2020 17:08:37 GMT -5
The Trump 2024 train is picking up some steam. I have some morbid curiosity about an actual second attempt and what would happen. He might not be able to resist if they take public dumps on his presidency for the next 4 years.
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kaptinbadrukk
OT Initiate
Watching CBSN and awaiting NYT results pages on every election day
Posts: 79
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Post by kaptinbadrukk on Nov 5, 2020 17:56:34 GMT -5
Trump's margin in PA has shrunk to 78,314 votes
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 5, 2020 18:14:05 GMT -5
It's already happening:
They're refusing to learn. Almost lose an election? Double down on your current strategy, it'll work this time, ignore what people are actually supporting!
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Post by Least censored on the planet! on Nov 5, 2020 18:30:22 GMT -5
Ok this song was just too real:
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 5, 2020 18:39:39 GMT -5
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 5, 2020 19:03:33 GMT -5
Almost lose is still winning. Donald Trump almost lost in 2016. It's a silly characterization bordering on circular logic. I think it's going to be hard to sell moderate Democrats on a leftward move when they think winning hinges on moderate appeal in a country that it turns out is far more okay with Trumpism than they wanted to believe. I think it's hard not to say Democrats were naive going into this election. They thought there was a depth that only so many were willing to sink to and it turns out far more are willing to sink to it than they thought. It's hard to know how many of the people who voted in 2020 will keep voting, or what will motivate them to vote. I don't think Pelosi is wrong in this moment, though I think it's still naive. Going more left won't help win special elections in Georgia, not exactly. I don't think staying moderate will either though. Because it's a special election and Democrats don't turn out to them in the first place. I think the bigger issue might simply be that Democrats are struggling to articulate their policy to the electorate and they need to fix that. Maybe they shouldn't even tackle things as 'moderate' or 'left' outside of rhetoric. I think they need to focus on policy issues and how those issues will benefit people. If the GOF want's to call it socialist or radical, let them. Ignore the entire semantic game and stay strictly focused on policy and what it means for people. This is paradoxically, something Trump has done while never once actually articulating a coherent policy. He lies, but his lies are delivered as issues rather than ideological notions. Democrats need to shake up how they talk about things going forward. I think Healthcare is a winning issue they should focus on. Everyone benefits from it. Housing is a winning issue they should focus on. Everyone benefits from it. Tackling climate change I think is an increasingly solid winning issue, if vehemently opposed by detractors. Everyone benefits from it. Consumer rights I think need to be properly framed, but would be a winning issue. Everyone benefits from it. Turns out Americans are dumb as shit and I think Democrats need to start talking down to their level and spelling it out. Don't talk about systematic racism. Talk about corruption and abuse of power. Don't talk about climate change. Talk about clean air and clean water. Don't talk about socialized medicine. Talk about affordable healthcare and drugs. Don't talk about a woman's right to choose. Talk about the lack of a Government's right to invade your body and dictate its contents (I think this one gets messy, cause you have to navigate abortion issues, laxing drug policies, and stuff like mandatory vaccines).
I think even the moderate position for Democrats is a winning position, but they need to talk about it in ways the idiots understand and that have a lot less jargon.
Donald Trump has succeeded in building a roadmap to winning national elections for Republicans. I suspect they'll keep using it, even if they drop his style. He's chipped into traditionally Democratic areas, unions and blue collar workers especially, and the Republicans are probably capable of keeping that. Especially since those groups are willing to believe the lies that the alt-right is the answer to their plight and the Democrats can't really do anything to solve the fact their industries are dying. I'm not sure trying to win them back is going to work when the area that Democrats have room for growth is in suburbs and ex-urban areas where they can adopt policies that can actually be enacted and have broader appeal and benefit if they just find the right way to talk about them.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Nov 5, 2020 19:11:12 GMT -5
Greta Thunberg just Tweeted one of Trump's tweets back to him, telling him to go to a movie with a friend and chill.
As a chronic overuser of sarcasm and snide remarks I'm left speechless. Not that it's hard to turn Trump's words back against him, but still. Ouch.
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CommieCanUCK
Ye Olde King of OT
The poster formerly known as feeder
Posts: 979
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Post by CommieCanUCK on Nov 5, 2020 19:16:18 GMT -5
Almost lose is still winning. Donald Trump almost lost in 2016. It's a silly characterization bordering on circular logic. I think it's going to be hard to sell moderate Democrats on a leftward move when they think winning hinges on moderate appeal in a country that it turns out is far more okay with Trumpism than they wanted to believe. I think it's hard not to say Democrats were naive going into this election. They thought there was a depth that only so many were willing to sink to and it turns out far more are willing to sink to it than they thought. It's hard to know how many of the people who voted in 2020 will keep voting, or what will motivate them to vote. I don't think Pelosi is wrong in this moment, though I think it's still naive. Going more left won't help win special elections in Georgia, not exactly. I don't think staying moderate will either though. Because it's a special election and Democrats don't turn out to them in the first place. I think the bigger issue might simply be that Democrats are struggling to articulate their policy to the electorate and they need to fix that. Maybe they shouldn't even tackle things as 'moderate' or 'left' outside of rhetoric. I think they need to focus on policy issues and how those issues will benefit people. If the GOF want's to call it socialist or radical, let them. Ignore the entire semantic game and stay strictly focused on policy and what it means for people. This is paradoxically, something Trump has done while never once actually articulating a coherent policy. He lies, but his lies are delivered as issues rather than ideological notions. Democrats need to shake up how they talk about things going forward. I think Healthcare is a winning issue they should focus on. Everyone benefits from it. Housing is a winning issue they should focus on. Everyone benefits from it. Tackling climate change I think is an increasingly solid winning issue, if vehemently opposed by detractors. Everyone benefits from it. Consumer rights I think need to be properly framed, but would be a winning issue. Everyone benefits from it. Turns out Americans are dumb as shit and I think Democrats need to start talking down to their level and spelling it out. Don't talk about systematic racism. Talk about corruption and abuse of power. Don't talk about climate change. Talk about clean air and clean water. Don't talk about socialized medicine. Talk about affordable healthcare and drugs. Don't talk about a woman's right to choose. Talk about the lack of a Government's right to invade your body and dictate its contents (I think this one gets messy, cause you have to navigate abortion issues, laxing drug policies, and stuff like mandatory vaccines).
I think even the moderate position for Democrats is a winning position, but they need to talk about it in ways the idiots understand and that have a lot less jargon.
Donald Trump has succeeded in building a roadmap to winning national elections for Republicans. I suspect they'll keep using it, even if they drop his style. He's chipped into traditionally Democratic areas, unions and blue collar workers especially, and the Republicans are probably capable of keeping that. Especially since those groups are willing to believe the lies that the alt-right is the answer to their plight and the Democrats can't really do anything to solve the fact their industries are dying. I'm not sure trying to win them back is going to work when the area that Democrats have room for growth is in suburbs and ex-urban areas where they can adopt policies that can actually be enacted and have broader appeal and benefit if they just find the right way to talk about them. Agreed. "Defund the police", as a policy, is sorely needed to make society more equitable and restore justice. As a slogan, it's pants-on-head stupid and whoever coined it might as well be a GOP operative.
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 5, 2020 19:23:25 GMT -5
Agreed. "Defund the police", as a policy, is sorely needed to make society more equitable and restore justice. As a slogan, it's pants-on-head stupid and whoever coined it might as well be a GOP operative. Honestly, I think even Black Lives Matter falls into this territory.
Instead of debating the real issue - that cops have way too much free reign to use lethal force in the flimsiest of circumstances and with the most pedantic of excuses - it's become a stupid semantical argument about whose lives do and don't matter. I think language needs to shift to focusing on the real issue; cops shouldn't kill people just because they can. They should be more accountable than 'because I felt threatened'. When they kill someone who didn't have to die, there should be consequences. Focus on that rather than who keeps dying, because it's fucking sad that so many people are passively racist and selfish little shits, but it's probably easier to get them on board asking 'do you think a cop should be able to kill you because you put your car in reverse?' than asking 'do you think a cop should be able to kill a black man because he put his car in reverse.'
I'd also propose the radical position of just abandoning the entire gun control debate. It's not going anywhere and because it's not going anywhere it's an unnecessary anchor on the waist of every Democrat who runs for election. This country is pathetically fine with regular mass shooter events and is so vehemently opposed to any sort of attempt to deal with it that there's just no fucking point. Abandon the entire enterprise. Republicans could lose a lot when a Democrat steps up and says 'guns are cool, not sure why anyone would want to ban them or anything.'
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 5, 2020 19:28:07 GMT -5
Almost lose is still winning. Donald Trump almost lost in 2016. It's a silly characterization bordering on circular logic. I think it's going to be hard to sell moderate Democrats on a leftward move when they think winning hinges on moderate appeal in a country that it turns out is far more okay with Trumpism than they wanted to believe. I think it's hard not to say Democrats were naive going into this election. (bold mine obviously) And that's what I'ms saying is the issue. Thinking that moderate candidates will win is a mistake. Progressive policies are becoming more and more popular, we even saw some of the progressive goals (i.e. higher minimum wage) get passed in some very red states, and "The Squad" all got re-elected in a very convincing victory. Embracing these ideals, not rejecting them in favor of moderation in an attempt to appeal towards the almost non-existent independent voter/"moderate" republicans, is the way forward. If anyone is still convinced that moderate candidates are the way forward after how close this election is/was, how few seats in the Senate the dems gained, how many they lost in the House, and how far-right republicans as a whole moved, they're willfully ignorant/naive at best, and a completely brain-dead idiot at worst. I do think your points about messaging are VERY valid, and the democrat's biggest weakness even when they're supporting a popular policy. The democrats fucking suck balls at it, and the republicans have had decades to perfect theirs now, and frequently trash the democrats' messaging with little-to-no pushback. Same with gun control, it's a losing position to take in this country, even when offering a very reasonable suggestion like "people with mental health issues shouldn't have guns" or "violent criminals shouldn't have guns."
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kaptinbadrukk
OT Initiate
Watching CBSN and awaiting NYT results pages on every election day
Posts: 79
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Post by kaptinbadrukk on Nov 5, 2020 19:33:27 GMT -5
Margin in Georgia is 3,486 in Trump's favor and in PA it is 64,266 in Trump's favor.
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 5, 2020 19:38:13 GMT -5
And that's what I'ms saying is the issue. Thinking that moderate candidates will win is a mistake. That makes no sense so long as moderates win elections. When I say Democrats were naive going into this election, I mean they're were indulging fantasy. They were never going to flip multiple senate seats in traditionally red states, no matter what they did. Moderate. Not-moderate. Doesn't matter. They were never going to win. With that, gaining 2 seats in the senate from two purple states is probably the best result they were ever going to get, while some of the house seats they lost were arguably self inflicted wounds gained by talking about how left the party should or shouldn't go. Are they? The same people who say they're popular are the people who were dead wrong about six senate races that weren't even close. Some issues have won in red states and can probably keep winning, yes, but I think the wording issue is the real issue.
The Squad are all from deep blue areas of the country where the electorate bleeds blue. AOC is not a model for how to win elections. You could run a Raggedy Ann Doll in New York City and it would win so long as the Democratic party ran it. Hickenlooper is a moderate. Kelly is a moderate. Biden is a moderate. The moderate Democrats were the ones winning in this election, not the Squad. Turning that around as an argument for how the party needs to move left to win doesn't make any sense.
What is the distinction between medicare for all and socialized medicine? None. It's the same thing. But this country is stupid and you'll have an easier time convincing Billy Redneck that his life will be better if his healthcare is affordable and you can do that for him than by lecturing him about how socialized medicine produces better national results than private insurance. I think the entire 'left' and 'moderate' thing is a trap. It should be entirely ignored and focused on framing issues to people in ways that make them understand it and support it. Basically, the A plus students of the country need to stop talking like A plus students talking to their professor and start talking like a professor trying to explain something to someone flunking the class. What I'm saying is, stop talking about being moderate or being left entirely. Just stop talking about it. It's turning things in vague ideological debates that favor Republicans ('America isn't communist!') and have nothing to do with the issues. Talk about issues and let the Republicans call names if they want. The labels are stupid, stop wearing them entirely and stop caring.
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Post by lonestarr777 on Nov 5, 2020 19:52:43 GMT -5
Trumps on TV again declaring victory. It keeps getting uglier and uglier. How long do you think before someone attacks a vote counting site?
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