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Post by semipotentwalrus on Nov 7, 2020 22:30:21 GMT -5
As someone from the one country whose school system inspired DeVos: NO. GOD FUCK NO. NO. Learn from us why the system is shit and only widens socioeconomic differences to society's detriment.
Suppose the Democrats try your approach: what is the backup plan if/when the Lincoln Republicans start acting in bad faith again? Try cooperating harder?
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 7, 2020 22:38:34 GMT -5
Suppose the Democrats try your approach: what is the backup plan if/when the Lincoln Republicans start acting in bad faith again? Try cooperating harder? Then it won't work and it doesn't matter.
Biden isn't going to be the one to fight that battle, even if its inevitable. It's not the brand of politician he is and making a fuss about how he should fight it is just the party shooting itself in the foot. There is more to be gained from trying to achieve some measure of token bipartisanship and failing right now than in burning all the bridges and demanding radical action. If the Democrats try and the GOP refuses at all levels, there's a lot more legitimacy to sweeping progressive reforms.
Basically, make the GOP look like assholes if they're going to be assholes. Leave no room for doubt that it's their fault bipartisanship has broken down. Fight the PR war that has to be fought rather than reject it out of hand in the pursuit of instant results that'll never make it past a 6-3 SCOTUS anyway.
Look at it this way. Realistically, what can Biden get done in the next 4 years? Especially if the GOP wins the Georgia senate races and keeps the upper house? Jack diddly squat. We can complain all we want about GOF obstruction and the need for sweeping reform but it's not happening in the next 4 years no matter how much anyone complains. So fight the battle that can be won. If the Republicans want to be the ones who make bipartisanship untenable, and I think they are, spend 4 years showing them as the ones who are making it not work. Force them to defend Trump's record if they're so eager to cry foul at any attempt to pursue his crimes. Paint them as Trumpers like they've painted the Democrats as 'radical leftists'. Go after the NRA and Republican super PACs that took foreign money and gave it to Republican politicians in 2018 (we know they did, and they probably did it again in 2020). Show that Democrats are willing to make concessions on the things they know they can't get in exchange for the things the public wants. Make sure that the failure to get anything done sticks to Republicans, not Democrats if the GOF chooses to obstruct.
The Democrats can fight low without looking low. In this regard, the GOF keeping the senate for now could actually be a hidden boon. Let McConnell be McConnell and let everyone see him being McConnell. Biden and the Democrats have the bully pulpit now. Use it to prepare for the next battle. The Republicans got all this shit down because they played the long game. It won't get undone by pursuing quick results that feel good but look cheap.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 7, 2020 22:40:00 GMT -5
This "We need to show unity" horseshit has been a GOP talking point for decades. DECADES! Every time they lose an election, or cause something awful they ALWAYS trot it out. Every single time. They're doing it now, they did it during COVID (and still are), they did it during 2018, and they did it when people got mad about kids in cages. And that's just THIS administration. Buying into it means playing right into the GOP's hands, and giving them exactly what they want. Stop it. Seriously, just stop it. When a child does something bad, you take something away. You punish them. You ground them, whatever is appropriate. You don't reward them for misbehaving. You don't give them two portions of dessert and an allowance raise. And again, with increased voter turnout trump won MORE of the GOP's votes percentage-wise than he did before. The LP was literally just pissing away money. Or it was flushing it down the toilet, or setting it on fire, whichever you prefer. Don't work with them, it's a waste of money and time. They're never gonna sway enough people for them to matter. The only people who they sway are slightly left-of-center people who really want to believe there's hope for trumptards. Instead, donate to candidates and work locally for candidates (if you can afford the time). Hand out fliers, put up signs, go door to door, make calls, send texts, whatever! Yeah, you can STILL go door to door and maintain proper distancing, Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib did it, and they may have very well helped flip states because of it. More than that, democrats need to rethink their strategy. Some campaigns spent ZERO dollars on digital advertising. ZERO! IN A PANDEMIC WHEN EVERYONE IS STUCK AT HOME! After extensive proof showing digital advertising is one of the most effective forms of advertising in terms of cost! It's mindboggling stupid! (Oh, and every single pro-Green New Deal/M4A democrat won re-election. Going left is not the death sentence establishment dems like Pelosi want you to think it is. They're more worried about their jobs than what this country needs.) edit: I believe some people here need to understand why "when they go low, we go high" will always and forever be a losing strategy: tl;dw: it only works when both sides can feel shame. As Albert Einstein once said: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results." We've tried the "cooperation" and "unity" strategy. It's never worked. It's time for something else.
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 7, 2020 22:53:26 GMT -5
Oh. And start doing in Florida, Ohio, Texas, and the Carolinas what Stacy Abrams did in Georgia. Democrats have needed to get their ground game existing for a long time now and I think Stacy Abrams has provided the model the party needs. Campaign season is too late to start getting people on board with your platform. Mobilize activists to register voters, explain party policy positions, and sell those positions to people in the states that party needs in the future. The sweeping success of Republican grassroots efforts over the last 20 years are what put an idiot like Trump in office once and what let him get scary close to a second go.
Democrats need to stop acting like huge cash reserves are a core component of modern elections, especially after this election. You need to get boots on the ground talking to people and you need to get on the board at the state level to build the party for national success.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Nov 7, 2020 22:53:54 GMT -5
I'm sceptical that showing that the Republicans are assholes could be done more effectively by Biden than Trump did the last four years. Again, if cooperation is to be achieved then the onus is on the Lincoln Republicans to realize that the Democrats have very little reason to trust them and to lead by example. If they are willing to do that then the Democrats should give them that chance. Once. Make them understand, in no uncertain terms, that their party got the US into this mess. Will they be willing to support a government that is more Liberal than they would like in order to save the US? That discussion will have to be had at the onset of this attempted cooperation, and if they cannot accept that then there is no point.
In the end, the issue is that 71 million voters thought fascism light was a good idea. How is that countered?
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 7, 2020 22:58:03 GMT -5
That's a good point I forgot walrus and reminded me of something. Why the fuck do the Democrats always need to act like the grown-ups in the room? Why the fuck is everyone looking to click their tongue in disapproval at the democrats for maybe not working together or attempting to get what they (and the people) actually want instead of blaming the GOP for refusing to work together and tearing everything down for DECADES now?
Seriously, people need to focus on who is actually causing the problems here. It should not be on the democrats to have to win every single time to prevent a dictatorship or fascism from rising to power. That was a big part of the first video I linked actually.
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 7, 2020 23:02:50 GMT -5
I'm sceptical that showing that the Republicans are assholes could be done more effectively by Biden than Trump did the last four years. Again, if cooperation is to be achieved then the onus is on the Lincoln Republicans to realize that the Democrats have very little reason to trust them and to lead by example. If they are willing to do that then the Democrats should give them that chance. Once. Make them understand, in no uncertain terms, that their party got the US into this mess. Will they be willing to support a government that is more Liberal than they would like in order to save the US? I think it's easy for the naive to think of Trump as an outlier. It's especially easy because of groups like the Lincoln Project, who are real Republicans and opposed him. Trump wasn't a Republican until 2016. He did not brandy traditional Republican politics, but rather spent 4 years reshaping Republican politics into his brand.
Like I was talking about a few pages ago; the American voter is a stupid creature. Stop indulging the notion it will make intelligent and rational choices. Speak down to its level rather than expecting it to see the obvious.
Except there is. If even the Lincoln Project won't cooperate, employ the bully pulpit. Let Biden be Biden. Let him try and if he fails paint the blame on the right. Focus on issues and how the Republicans refuse to do the same and won't compromise on anything. I think there is a mistake and a massive pit fall in putting overt emphasis on Republican recalcitrance; the non-dedicated voter doesn't give a shit. The fickle voter, who will sit out one election and not care until something suddenly affects them or someone convinces them something will doesn't give a shit (which is a lot of people who voted this election). The focus needs to be on issues first, parties second. Get people onto the platform and then tell them the Republicans are the ones in the way and show why by trying and failing to compromise.
The Republicans already played this game in 2014 and won. It is, sadly, a winning strategy. But the Republicans don't actually have any policy positions. They argue issues on principle, not policy. They have to hide their actual policy interests because they're unpopular. Fighting them in a war of vague ideologies favors them because they'll just lie and paint any Democratic counterpoint as a lie. Making it about parties favors them. They'll indulge in conspiracy theories and play the 'both sides are wrong' game. That's where the Democratic party can beat them. Stop making it about parties and vague idealogies. Make it about issues and policy. The Republicans will lose if they're constantly forced to defend opposition to the very notion of affordable healthcare, government accountability, and bipartisanship. Just because that last one is impossible doesn't mean it's not a weapon. There are voters who still like it. Let the Republicans kill it and make those voters know they killed it.
Being seen as the party of unity and cooperation is a good thing. Casting it aside willy nilly just cause the GOF makes it impossible is foolish.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Nov 7, 2020 23:07:19 GMT -5
I believe that phenomenon exists because we give a shit. It is patently impossible to use someone's morals against them if they have no morals. It is a thankful target to attack the left in the US for hypocrisy because the left generally disapproves of hypocrisy. The Republicans wallow in it.
EDIT: I can agree on getting things done for the average voter, but how are the Democrats going to make it obvious that the Republicans are the source of obstruction when half the country is convinced that Biden is Mao 2.0?
Gonna sleep now, so no more responses for a bit.
EDIT edit because I had a quick thought: if my sudden aha-moment is right, do you mean the Democrats should seek cooperation as a win-win situation where they either get the cooperation they need/want or use its rejection as political ammo? If so, that relies entirely on the ability to persuade the public that the Republicans are refusing to cooperate. Possible, for sure, but risky. The egregious abuses of the Trump admin must not go uninvestigated, cooperation or not.
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 7, 2020 23:20:34 GMT -5
EDIT: I can agree on getting things done for the average voter, but how are the Democrats going to make it obvious that the Republicans are the source of obstruction when half the country is convinced that Biden is Mao 2.0? Gonna sleep now, so no more responses for a bit. Step one, build concessions into everything. And don't just call them concessions at a press conference. That word in itself means nothing.
When Joe Biden walks into the White House press room and announced additions to the ACA to protect contraceptive care, abortion rights, and legal protections for same-sex couples wanting hospital visitation rights say "We're also talking to Congressional Republicans about concessions, giving some room to religious freedoms. We won't make the Catholic church pay for an employee's contraceptives. The program will pick up that tap for the employee, if they want it." If the Republicans want to refuse that, let him go up there again and say, "I don't see the issue. We aren't going to make the church pay for something against it's tenets, but the employee has needs to. I can't understand why there's no compromise. They're complaining we want to take away private insurance, but there's an entire section in the law - you can check the link on our Twitter - designed to protect private insurance. They say it's not good enough but they can't or won't tell us why."
And they can't, because they don't know why. The GOF is built on fighting a culture war. Making things about parties plays into that. Making things about issues makes them out to be jackasses.
The bully pulpit is a powerful tool and Obama rarely made use of it in this manner despite being a phenomenally well spoken President. I think he gave the GOF too much credit. Don't try to force Biden to fight the battle for the progressive left. Let him to fight the battle for unity. Convince him to frame it in the way that makes the Republicans the bad guys. Of course, I doubt that'll happen even if its the smarter movie. I think Biden shares Obama's naivete about the Republicans, but there's really nothing to be done about that.
EDIT: I'm saying Donald Trump spent four years not even pretending to represent all Americans and reveled in his personal attacks on his political enemies. The guy with the unity platform just beat him. There's a difference between naively pursuing compromise, recklessly casting it aside for no gain, and offering compromise while fully prepared not to get it. I'm saying turn compromise into a xanatos gambit. Offering compromise now and getting surprised means you get what you want and can address what you didn't get latter. Offering it now and getting refused hurts the other side more than you so long as you can convince those willing to listen the other side is the problem. There is no gain in refusing the idea of compromise. There's plenty of gain in campaigning as a unity party prepared for disunity.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 8, 2020 0:34:53 GMT -5
Oh look, a potential Biden cabinet member is ALREADY talking about how what the GOP wants and needs is important. Shocking. Oh, and this was him 4 years ago.
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 8, 2020 0:44:00 GMT -5
In the same topic (I think she is being farcical, i.e. not serious) AOC threatens to leave politics. Honestly, if you're going to quit, or even jest about it, because people don't bow down and agree with everything you say, you don't belong in politics. I haven't liked AOC since she first appeared, not because I dislike her politics, but because I dislike her immaturity. It's a shame, because she's smart and articulate in a way that would take her far but if she's so incapable of seeing the problem of expecting the entire Democratic party to run for election like they're running in Queens, she has growing up to do. It's also just a case of blatantly lying on her part. The thing progressives are being criticized right now for is 'defund the police' and talking without thinking, not Medicare for All or BLM. I'm not even sure where she gets the idea moderates are hostile to those ideas. They're not hostile, they're skeptical one will fly and fully on board with the other, but the other isn't really a policy position. It's a notion. Say what you want about moderates, but progressives need to mature their rhetoric and their candidates if they want to make their policy goals succeed. This display is childish.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 8, 2020 0:54:51 GMT -5
Is it more or less childish than wanting to unite or work with fascists? Is it more or less childish to fall for the same call for "unity" year after year? (And no, none of these are directed at you, but the larger group of "moderate" dems)
Seriously, let's not pretend moderates aren't openly hostile to progressives at times. The majority of the democratic party is made up of the likes of Pelosi. A spineless coward who's greatest accomplishment over the last 4 years was a failed impeachment and clapping at trump during a SOTU speech and taking every chance to blame progressives. That's not exactly a friendly work environment, especially when that person is, well, not your "boss" but your "leader," which I guess she meets the minimum requirements for.
Seriously, it's easy to be disheartened when someone like that is a key figurehead of "your" party. If you consider it "childish" to be open with the struggles of your public-facing job, ok that's fine I guess, but as a progressive, I can only roll my eyes at what the "moderates" are doing and that you seem at least ok with. Biden hasn't even taken office and "moderates" are already talking about "unity" and considering putting the people who got us, or at least helped, into this mess, back into positions of power.
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 8, 2020 1:05:54 GMT -5
Is it more or less childish than wanting to unite or work with fascists? Is it more or less childish to fall for the same call for "unity" year after year? (And no, none of these are directed at you, but the larger group of "moderate" dems) About as childish as failing to comprehend that you can do more than one thing at time. You can make unity pitches and take unity actions while fully expecting it to just be good rhetoric and nothing more. It's smarter than going full Trump, especially after an election that showed the problem is deeper than Trump. I don't think they aren't, but it's not about policy. It's about progressives championing stupid slogans like 'defund the policy' and forcing moderates in purple districts to defend themselves. Progressives are a mounting problem not for their policy goals but for their lack of party discipline. They can debate and pursue their interests without putting the entire party into an untennable position, especially when all the progressive ideals in the world mean jack shit when the fascists opposing them can win majorities by making their opposition vehement. You keep complaining that the party won't go low, but I think the real problem is that you and other progressives refuse to be smart about it. Just going low isn't going to work. It plays to the GOP's strengths ('both sides are bad' is their defense already, it can't be readily co-opted). Go low and be smart by looking like you're going high. Pelosi isn't why impeachment failed and moderates are the ones who pushed for it in the first place. It's stupid to blame them for not stopping things they couldn't stop. And those figures heads will remain hostile when the immediate reaction to being disheartened is childishness that puts them on the spot. Bernie Sander's didn't become an icon by nakedly complaining about the Democratic party constantly. He became an icon by arguing his policy positions passionately. You can do that without forcing the party into a civil war that lets the fascists cease power and drive progressives and moderates out. I think you need to accept the country is in a far more precarious position than you'd like and that firebrand politics seem attractive but feed the Fox News machine more than anything and the Fox News machine works very well. Fight smarter. Stop giving the other side easy shots. A lot of AOC's points about why the Democrats lost house seats are very on point, but being a child about criticism makes no one want to listen to her.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 8, 2020 1:16:30 GMT -5
Is it more or less childish than wanting to unite or work with fascists? Is it more or less childish to fall for the same call for "unity" year after year? (And no, none of these are directed at you, but the larger group of "moderate" dems) About as childish as failing to comprehend that you can do more than one thing at time. You can make unity pitches and take unity actions while fully expecting it to just be good rhetoric and nothing more. It's smarter than going full Trump, especially after an election that showed the problem is deeper than Trump. I don't think they aren't, but it's not about policy. It's about progressives championing stupid slogans like 'defund the policy' and forcing moderates in purple districts to defend themselves. Progressives are a mounting problem not for their policy goals but for their lack of party discipline. They can debate and pursue their interests without putting the entire party into an untennable position, especially when all the progressive ideals in the world mean jack shit when the fascists opposing them can win majorities by making their opposition vehement. You keep complaining that the party won't go low, but I think the real problem is that you and other progressives refuse to be smart about it. Just going low isn't going to work. It plays to the GOP's strengths. Go low and be smart by looking like you're going high. Pelosi isn't why impeachment failed and moderates are the ones who pushed for it in the first place. It's stupid to blame them for not stopping things they couldn't stop. And those figures heads will remain hostile when the immediate reaction to being disheartened is childishness that puts them on the spot. Bernie Sander's didn't become an icon by nakedly complaining about the Democratic party constantly. He became an icon by arguing his policy positions passionately. You can do that without forcing the party into a civil war that lets the fascists cease power and drive progressives and moderates out. I think you need to accept the country is in a far more precarious position than you'd like and that firebrand politics seem attractive but feed the Fox News machine more than anything and the Fox News machine works very well. Fight smarter. Stop giving the other side easy shots. A lot of AOC's points about why the Democrats lost house seats are very on point, but being a child about criticism makes no one want to listen to her. We already know the "unity" stuff isn't rhetoric. Biden is already putting GOP members into his cabinet. That's not rhetoric, that's capitulation. That's him letting the fascists get another platform and chance. I feel like you missed my point about Pelosi. I'm not blaming her for impeachment failing, that's on the fascists. I'm blaming her for being a bad "leader." And the issue with "go low while looking like you're going high" is that it usually ends up with you going high as the republicans turn around and say they weren't consulted on any of the "concessions" and the "concessions" weren't even things they had issues with. Seriously, it's not hard to trip up someone who's trying to do both at the same time. You might get them once, or even twice, but they've had far more time to practice making the democrats into the enemy than vice versa. Plus, at this point, you're not going to convince a trumptard that democrats aren't pure evil. Stop worrying about what they fucking think. They supported fascism happily, their thoughts aren't worth dogshit. I also made some edits to my post to explain my position better.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 8, 2020 1:43:27 GMT -5
Also, listen to yourself. You'd rather insult progressives by calling them "childish" than understand why AOC was frustrated. She laid out some very clear reasons with examples of why MODERATE DEMOCRATS lost elections in the house, while progressives won their re-elections by a landslide, and the "moderates" responded by whining that it's the progressive's fault that they lost their election.
Again, when you explain to someone why they lost, and give examples of how others won, and how they might need to change to also win, and they respond by saying "nuh-uh! You're the problem!" It's totally reasonable to be unhappy. Progressives didn't cause moderates to lose, moderates caused moderates to lose.
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