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Post by hatoflords on Nov 7, 2020 16:32:56 GMT -5
Interesting note: that was actually caused by the number of people who left the GoP. I watched 2500 people in Mercer County, in PA, vote Biden, despite voting for Republicans downticket.
Biden won doing exactly what you're saying he shouldn't do. To be perfectly honest, I'd have Biden pardon Trump, and then let the State court's deal with him. Biden looks good but Trump gets the jail time everyone wants to see from him.
And, let me make this really clear for you, we can't run this country the way you seem to think we can. It does not work. What you get then is each time the other party gets elected, they spend four years tearing down what the previous party spent four years assembling.
I spent years going through the papers of William Stuart, a GOP Member of the House during the Buchanan administration. What you're talking about is literally the same mistake that was made then, which will inevitably lead to the same result.
I think Biden has to tread carefully to have any hope, but I think he and moderates will face internal revolt no matter what they do. That's something that's a few years down the line though.
I suspect the best case scenario short term may be to simply let investigations already being conducted proceed. The only reason Baby-G isn't in prison with Parnas and Fulman is because of his connection to Trump. Bill Barr may not see prison, but I suspect documents will expose naked partisanship in how he ran things and make him a political untouchable among anyone who isn't a full on Trumper. Same will likely happen to Pompeo and many other Trump admin appointees. Biden need to nothing to make that happen. It'll occur on its own and criminal acts will be investigated without any requirement for him to order it.
The big question is Trump himself. I'm not sure it's viable to just say he lost and ignore him. He may not be a literal Nazi, but much like the Nazis we can't simply say they lost and it's all good now. Donald Trump broke the law over and over again. We all know he did it. Even the Republicans know he did and have given up even trying to deny it.
I think there have to be investigations into the corruption we know is there. We need to know what he did and how he did it so it can't happen again, and because in the long run exposing the full dept of his failures may be necessary to combating his legacy. The big question will come if and when he tries to pardon himself and his family. He's already staring down criminal and civil investigations that could destroy him. Biden doesn't necessarily have to get directly involved, but he and the Democratic party have to navigate the questions and the PR extremely carefully or they'll lose the purpose.
EDIT: And there is a solid point to be said that the GOF just spent 4 years tearing things down. Simply saying 'lets move on' isn't mature, it's naive when dealing with what the GOP currently is. The Democrats now have the difficult, and maybe impossible, task of trying to fix a system the Republicans purposefully, knowingly, and willing broke without looking like naked partisans. I think the moderates in the party recognize this and their first principle problem will be getting the progressives and the far-left to do what they likely won't do (stop being selfish reactionaries no better than the GOF they hate).
The second problem I worry is that the GOF is not going to help. Just because they turned on Trump and worked with Biden to remove him from power doesn't necessarily mean they're going to fight the corruption in the party the orange loser thrived on. I think people who were turncoats this year will be loyal GOFers next time, and I'm unconvinced they're against what the party is so much as against how Trump made them look.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 7, 2020 16:36:30 GMT -5
You understand LP was actually fucking worthless right? Trump's share of GOP votes went from 90% to 93% last I checked. Interesting note: that was actually caused by the number of people who left the GoP. I watched 2500 people in Mercer County, in PA, vote Biden, despite voting for Republicans downticket.
Biden won doing exactly what you're saying he shouldn't do. To be perfectly honest, I'd have Biden pardon Trump, and then let the State court's deal with him. Biden looks good but Trump gets the jail time everyone wants to see from him. And, let me make this really clear for you, we can't run this country the way you seem to think we can. It does not work. What you get then is each time the other party gets elected, they spend four years tearing down what the previous party spent four years assembling.
I spent years going through the papers of William Stuart, a GOP Member of the House during the Buchanan administration. What you're talking about is literally the same mistake that was made then, which will inevitably lead to the same result.
Biden didn't win through bi-partisanship, he won because of increased voter turnout, and squeaking out a few key states by incredibly narrow margins. Biden pardoning trump will only fracture his own base, and cause the dems to lose in 2022, and 2024. Everything you're assuming is important and true-ish, but only if the GOP wants to work with the dems. And they don't. You somehow cannot accept this or understand this, so let me say it louder: THE GOP DOES NOT WANT TO WORK WITH THE DEMS.Once more: THE GOP DOES NOT WANT TO WORK WITH THE DEMS.The only reason to attempt bi-partisanship is if both sides agree to it. The GOP has not, and will not work in good faith. Hell, YOU'RE arguing in bad faith. The GOP tears down whatever the dems build, and never replace it with anything. Look at the ACA. The GOP gutted it and never planned on replacing it. Look at the post office, look at social security, look at medicare, look at social programs in general, the GOP has ALWAYS done their best to tear them down, over the last 30 years. Here's the rule of thumb: THE GOP DOES NOT BUILD THINGS. They only tear shit down. Your claim of "What you get then is each time the other party gets elected, they spend four years tearing down what the previous party spent four years assembling" is a "both sides" bullshit claim, and you should you know that. Shame on you. And frankly, what the trump administration "built" is ABSOLUTELY worth tearing down. What did they "build"? A system where children were abducted from their families? Selling off parts of the government? Racist and bigoted policies? Do you really want to "build" on those? I know members here have experienced those policies first hand (i.e. I think Dusa got sent to the border at one point.) Fuck that. I want no part in "building" anything the GOP is interested in. The funniest part of this is you pulling an example from over 150 fucking years ago after I said to stop treating this like pre-2010/2012 times. You cannot be missing the differences between now and then. Stop fucking living in the past. There is never a good time for bi-partisanship with fascists, so the idea of working with them can fuck right off.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Nov 7, 2020 17:30:40 GMT -5
And, let me make this really clear for you, we can't run this country the way you seem to think we can. It does not work. What you get then is each time the other party gets elected, they spend four years tearing down what the previous party spent four years assembling.
...but that's already what the Republicans are doing? Like, I don't mind the Democrats working with Republicans who genuinely want to cooperate, but other than Amash and Romney where were they during the Trump admin (and even then Romney had no problem with Barrett)? Where were they while Mitch blocked more than 200 judges and a SCOTUS seat just because he could?
Like, you're not wrong in that it's not sustainable, but when the Republicans won't play ball what are the Democrats supposed to do? Just throw their hands in the air and give in?
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 7, 2020 17:33:23 GMT -5
Baron, I think this is a video you need to watch considering you support pardoning trump:
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Nov 7, 2020 19:06:24 GMT -5
At this point you might not even wonder what will happen to Trump in 2021 as much as you would wonder if he will even make it to 2021 with all this rage tweeting. He might rage himself into a heart attack at this rate.
Pardoning Trump would achieve nothing. Nobody would actually cross to the other side out of gratitude if they still support Trump after all this. Its an empty and meaningless gesture that just lets Trump get away with it. Those that would want a pardon for Trump are already lost.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2020 20:52:39 GMT -5
Baron, I think this is a video you need to watch considering you support pardoning trump:
Let me point out something that this gentleman does not seem to understand: these people don't care. They don't care that Trump is a criminal. They don't care what he's actually done or what the results would have been from his actions. All prosecuting him will do is make him a martyr to these assholes.
People know what the Nazis did. But they follow that ideology anyway and claim that the men executed for genocide at Nuremberg were martyrs. Despite what some of them openly admitted to have done.
Bringing down the force of the law on these shitheels will just make things worse. Because then we will have a much bigger terrorist problem than we already do.
We have to break them smarter than that. But, I'll admit, I'm short on ideas as to how one goes about it. To be honest, with their victemhood complex, anything we do to 'punish' them just feeds into their twisted beliefs. To be honest, the best thing we could probably do is a damnatio memoriae, and ensure that the name Trump is cast out and forgotten by history, and stricken from the roll of Presidents. But that's, at bet, burying the problem.
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 7, 2020 21:02:20 GMT -5
Let me point out something that this gentleman does not seem to understand: these people don't care. They don't care that Trump is a criminal. They don't care what he's actually done or what the results would have been from his actions. All prosecuting him will do is make him a martyr to these assholes.
People know what the Nazis did. But they follow that ideology anyway and claim that the men executed for genocide at Nuremberg were martyrs. Despite what some of them openly admitted to have done.
Bringing down the force of the law on these shitheels will just make things worse. Because then we will have a much bigger terrorist problem than we already do.
We have to break them smarter than that. But, I'll admit, I'm short on ideas as to how one goes about it. To be honest, with their victemhood complex, anything we do to 'punish' them just feeds into their twisted beliefs. To be honest, the best thing we could probably do is a damnatio memoriae, and ensure that the name Trump is cast out and forgotten by history, and stricken from the roll of Presidents. But that's, at bet, burying the problem.
I honestly think most of this is irrelevant. Do I expect Trumpism to vanish with Trump in a cell for things he did? No. Do I think he'll be a martyr? Yes. Do I think it should happen anyway? Yes.
If we can't do this without everything falling apart, then it's done. There's no point. We're already past the pale and opining about how we must tread carefully or risk sinking the point is all a bunch of bullshit cause the boat is already sinking. If the law is powerless to be enforced on the most powerful men in the country and the most flagrant abusers in out society, then our society is already broken and beyond reform. It's like the argument over security and liberty. Giving up one for the other is pointless. You'll get neither. Letting Trump and those who let him function walk without consequence is neither a path to justice nor a path to national stability. We're just sitting back and waiting for the next would be dictator to emerge and be less dumb about it. The guard rails of the political system must be rebuilt and consequences dealt to those who reveled in tearing them down.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2020 21:04:27 GMT -5
THE GOP DOES NOT WANT TO WORK WITH THE DEMS.Once more: THE GOP DOES NOT WANT TO WORK WITH THE DEMS.There is never a good time for bi-partisanship with fascists, so the idea of working with them can fuck right off. One,I know about the GoP's efforts to tear down those agencies a hell of a lot better than you do.
Two, let me put it this way, so that maybe you can understand better:
WITHOUT COOPERATION AMERICA IS DEAD.
All that's left then for this country is the Civil War to commence. And it will end in nuclear fireballs.
So, do you understand why I'm more interested in building bridges in some way, shape or form than I am in bringing the screaming end of life on this planet?
Because that's the choice, ultimately.
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dusa
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Post by dusa on Nov 7, 2020 21:34:45 GMT -5
While I am happy with the ultimate outcome, it has also proven that Trump is a symptom. And more people voted for him that last time. It’s not going away, and I have little faith that the country will recover.
I think we are seriously eyeing making use of my, and my children’s, dual citizenship...
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 7, 2020 21:39:36 GMT -5
It's really just not feasible to pretend all of this will go away with Trump out of officeThis sort of thing is probably common in census years I'd bet. Happens all the time with the pressure and the dead lines. It'll be driven to significance though by Trump's mismanagement and clear desire to manipulate the count to his own ends. His legacy can't simply be ignored. The moment a 6-3 court guts Roe v. Wade, the moment the justice department has to make a choice in how to handle a highly charged political cases like Michael Flynn, the release of data of the 2020 census, and the ongoing coronavirus crisis. Trump's spectre won't go away for convenience. Ignore it and move on cannot be the answer because it can't be ignored. Cowardice in the face of trial will not save the country anymore than firebrand radicalism.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2020 21:46:47 GMT -5
It's really just not feasible to pretend all of this will go away with Trump out of officeThis sort of thing is probably common in census years I'd bet. Happens all the time with the pressure and the dead lines. It'll be driven to significance though by Trump's mismanagement and clear desire to manipulate the count to his own ends. His legacy can't simply be ignored. The moment a 6-3 court guts Roe v. Wade, the moment the justice department has to make a choice in how to handle a highly charged political cases like Michael Flynn, the release of data of the 2020 census, and the ongoing coronavirus crisis. Trump's spectre won't go away for convenience. Ignore it and move on cannot be the answer because it can't be ignored. Cowardice in the face of trial will not save the country anymore than firebrand radicalism. No it's not going to. But, moving forward will have to be handled extremely deftly. That's why I liked the idea of a Federal pardon, and then try him at the state level. The incoming administration can publicly wash it's hands of him, but justice can still be done. I think Biden is making the right moves, and yes, that does include reaching out to the GoP.
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 7, 2020 21:57:52 GMT -5
No it's not going to. But, moving forward will have to be handled extremely deftly. That's why I liked the idea of a Federal pardon, and then try him at the state level. The incoming administration can publicly wash it's hands of him, but justice can still be done. I think Biden is making the right moves, and yes, that does include reaching out to the GoP. A federal pardon would never be forgiven. I think wolf is right on that. The left will be outraged and will launch a full attack on the moderate side of the party and it wouldn't mean a thing to the right. They'd just take it smugly. Never mind that it could be a god awful mistake. Trump has arguably committed crimes against humanity and war crimes during his time in office. The killing of Soleimani, the seizing of Iranian oil tankers and then selling the contents, and the manufactured crisis at the southern border? We don't know what else may come to light. Even if he is never prosecuted, he can't simply be pardoned. A pardon excusing Trump for his crimes, real and imagined, would be one of the the worst mistakes Biden could commit. I do think that letting the charges against him in New York proceed is best for now. I think though that other cases may expand, particularly those revolving around Baby-G and it would be difficult to impossible to swallow potential developments in such cases that firmly paint Trump as all but in league with a foreign government at the expense of American interests. Biden can't just lead a full on charge against Trump. It would be a disaster. But he can't pardon him. I think it could cause the very thing you fear. Trump must be left open to the mechanisms of justice or justice is a lie. And I disagree with Wolf. The Lincoln project has shown there are some conservatives with principles and they are not unreachable. The key will be getting them on board, in making any prosecutions and investigations that do happen about what was done, not who did it. The goal cannot become punishing the GOF for Trump even if they deserve it because it will defeat the purpose, but we can't leave the guilty with a get out of jail free card because we're afraid. Fear is not the answer.
EDIT: And an area where Biden could play this very well is to put moderate Republicans in the justice department, not at the head post obviously (the left would throw a fit), but in lower positions and positions that would end up making decisions on Trump and those around him. Letting an anti-Trump Republican be the face of such investigations and prosecutions would be healing for the country and it's one of the things he could probably manage. They wanted him gone for his corruption. Let them share in pursuing justice for it.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 7, 2020 22:09:10 GMT -5
Baron, are you seriously this braindead? You're arguing for cooperation while admitting the GOP will never cooperate, and will their base will NEVER care. Why the fuck should anyone cooperate with it? You're literally arguing the dems should keep doing what they've done for the last 40+ years.
and that gave us trump.
And if you know more about the destruction of these agencies than I do (supposedly, I'm not sure I believe you considering what you said) STOP IMPLYING IT'S ALSO THE DEMOCRATS FAULT. PUT THE BLAME WHERE IT FUCKING BLONGS, WHICH IS SQUARELY ON THE REPUBLICANS.
Think for a fucking second, seriously, jesus. I know you want your party back, but it's too late. They're gone.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Nov 7, 2020 22:11:31 GMT -5
Premise A: America is dead without cooperation.
Premise B: The Republican party has shown almost no willingness to cooperate for the last 12 years.
Conclusion: I propose Mr. Orange killed Uncle Sam, with the revolver, at Mar-a-Lago.
Again: How do you cooperate with an entity that does not want to cooperate? What power does the Lincoln Project actually have in stopping Mitch from just blocking whatever he feels like? By all means, if you can find the Republicans with spines and an actual willingness to cooperate then do so. It might happen at a State level or on a more local level, but it sure as fuck won't happen in Congress.
EDIT: I do agree with the amazing Mr. Hat that involving Project Lincoln people in the criminal investigations that just have to take place is a good idea, but it has to be made absolutely, 100% clear that partisan shittery will not be allowed (on either side); give them one chance, and one chance only. That really is more than I think they deserve, but if they start being partisan shits in that situation then I think Baron is right and any investigations, while being the moral thing to do, will be largely pointless as a moral argument. If the Trumpistas do not give a shit about his crimes then it does not matter how right investigating and potentially sentencing him is. Demonstrating that even the President can be sanctioned for his wrongdoing is meaningless if the target of the demonstration does not accnowlege that wrongdoing has taken place.
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 7, 2020 22:24:35 GMT -5
None whatsoever, but I don't think anything can be done about that. The best thing is for the Lincoln Project to be partnered with so that going forward Biden can stick to his unity message. He isn't just for Democrats, he's willing to work with conservatives and will work with those who will work with him. Let Mitch McConnell be an ass if he wants to be an ass. Use it against him by shaking hands with Jeff Flake, Cindy McCain, and others who can say that they put country before party. They might not be future Dem voters, but whatever. They don't need to be. The smart move isn't to use them to stop McConnell, it's to partner with them so that a Biden presidency can claim bipartisan legitimacy. Half of what lets the GOP fearmonger their way to victory is the claim that the left with shove the right out and oppress them. Counter that by working with those on the right who are reasonable and negotiate from a position of political realism. Give them what they want on guns. Democrats aren't going to get shit on that front anyway so there's no real lose. It could be as easy as legislation ensuring access to firearms and a negotiated concession on universal background checks for certain kinds of arms (namely those frequently used in mass shootings). Give them what they want on school choice. It's bullshit but it's a battle that can be given without sacrificing the nation. Get healthcare and justice reform in exchange. Moderate conservatives aren't even opposed to the former if the messaging is right and the later has room for incremental improvements that can be built on in the future.
Biden's presidency has a long shot in hell (imo) of restoring stability, but I don't think it's wrong to try. It'll be obvious soon enough if it's truly impossible and at that point the progressive left will probably have a champion to pick up Bernie Sanders' mantle to take a stab at it. That person themselves might have an easier time if there is more political stability than there is now anyway.
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