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Post by semipotentwalrus on Nov 8, 2020 16:14:50 GMT -5
Referring to your own experience as part of a political organization is not an argument to authority when the question is regarding the actions of that organization. Someone in such a situation would even be considered an expert witness in court, no?
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 8, 2020 16:17:24 GMT -5
Referring to your own experience as part of a political organization is not an argument to authority when the question is regarding the actions of that organization. Someone in such a situation would even be considered an expert witness in court, no? Maybe if they provided something more than "trust me, I was involved in it" and weren't misrepresenting my argument.
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Post by tannhauser42 on Nov 8, 2020 16:26:09 GMT -5
Wolf, you are exemplifying one of the very problems going on in the Democratic party right now. Tone it down. Save your vitriol for the actual opposition out there. I'm nearly at the point where I'm willing to block you like I did Whembly, because you're treating everyone who doesn't 100% agree with you as if they're 100% your enemy.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 8, 2020 16:34:23 GMT -5
Wolf, you are exemplifying one of the very problems going on in the Democratic party right now. Tone it down. Save your vitriol for the actual opposition out there. I'm nearly at the point where I'm willing to block you like I did Whembly, because you're treating everyone who doesn't 100% agree with you as if they're 100% your enemy. I feel like everyone is missing mine (and AOC's) point here: The democratic party cannot survive by "unifying" with the GOP, if anyone actually believes that. It'll end up exactly like it has every other time. It needs to look inwards and figure out why it performed so poorly. Was there enough spent on digital ads? Canvassing? What issues played well with voters in red states? Baron seems to be flatout ignoring what I'm saying and just dismissing it without any sort of counter-evidence or point. Now, maybe I was too aggressive with hatoflords, I can't really comment on that as I'm too close to it, but I'll take your word for it that I was. I just feel like I'm living in an alternate world where because the message wasn't sent nicely or without criticism of the party, it's being ignored. Everyone seems content to accept barely winning.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Nov 8, 2020 16:45:10 GMT -5
I'd urge caution drawing any immediate conclusions from an election that is such an outlier in voter participation though. There certainly has to be a thorough self-searching into what was done poorly and what was good, but I'm not convinced there's been enough time to draw any major conclusions just yet. Deciding ahead of time that the party did "poorly" in an election where the voter participation was the highest in over a century is a tad premature, just as it would be to claim it did great.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2020 16:49:01 GMT -5
Sorry, I'm not 100% informed on every single campaign, but I would assume she actually spent time and money on canvassing, digital ads, and probably outspent her opponent, along with being the incumbent. While, yes, she did digital campaigning, and outspend her rival, canvassing was actually out of that picture. The thing that really pushed her along though was an endorsement from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce which brought Republicans to her banner and sealed the deal.
I don't have the numbers you want me to show you, since some of them are not actually available yet. but I suppose time will tell which of us was right.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2020 16:55:07 GMT -5
Referring to your own experience as part of a political organization is not an argument to authority when the question is regarding the actions of that organization. Someone in such a situation would even be considered an expert witness in court, no? My own experience with holding office in PA was effectively the opposite of what wolf is saying. I hung on by appealing to the broadest possible number of people, GoP or Dem. The people I beat tried appealing to one or the other, but never both, and they lost. I hung on to my office until I left, as the pay sucked and the hours were long, the press hated me, and people spat on me for doing my job.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 8, 2020 17:04:06 GMT -5
Sorry, I'm not 100% informed on every single campaign, but I would assume she actually spent time and money on canvassing, digital ads, and probably outspent her opponent, along with being the incumbent. While, yes, she did digital campaigning, and outspend her rival, canvassing was actually out of that picture. The thing that really pushed her along though was an endorsement from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce which brought Republicans to her banner and sealed the deal. I don't have the numbers you want me to show you, since some of them are not actually available yet. but I suppose time will tell which of us was right.
I think it's important to note, that historically, the people who outspend their opponent tend to win, the people who are incumbents have an advantage, and recently, we've seen digital advertising be extremely cost-effective and capable of making a large difference. She hit at least 3 of those 4 markers I listed and could also very well be a more charismatic person than her opponents (which is certainly a large advantage), so I don't think pinning the "winning move" or whatever on the US Chamber of Commerce is fair, especially when, as you've said, we don't have the numbers yet. But this is all a different discussion from what I actually said and what you accused me of saying. I did not say anything of the sort that progressives or progressivism were the winning reason for those who won. That's you, building a strawman and putting words in my mouth. I'd urge caution drawing any immediate conclusions from an election that is such an outlier in voter participation though. There certainly has to be a thorough self-searching into what was done poorly and what was good, but I'm not convinced there's been enough time to draw any major conclusions just yet. Deciding ahead of time that the party did "poorly" in an election where the voter participation was the highest in over a century is a tad premature, just as it would be to claim it did great. I disagree, while the election turnout is unusual, we can still take lessons from it, and I'd argue losing house seats, (and to a lesser extent, not getting a senate majority) is performing poorly. I do agree that right now might be too soon, especially without a breakdown of how the voting went, but I still think there are some very basic rules that 2016 changed that people aren't totally on board with yet, such as digital advertising.
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Post by tannhauser42 on Nov 8, 2020 18:59:27 GMT -5
Let's not forget the pandemic had several significant effects on this election. More mail in voting, more early voting. More people voted against Trump because they felt Trump failed them, and more people voted for Trump because they wanted the pandemic "inconveniences" to be over. Less political rallies and events because of pandemic precautions. And so on.
We're also seeing how the pollsters weren't accurate. Personally, I've believed this for a long time, because I would argue your survey results are already skewed when you're relying on people who are willing to answer an unknown number and actually talk to you.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2020 4:49:22 GMT -5
Let's not forget the pandemic had several significant effects on this election. More mail in voting, more early voting. More people voted against Trump because they felt Trump failed them, and more people voted for Trump because they wanted the pandemic "inconveniences" to be over. Less political rallies and events because of pandemic precautions. And so on. We're also seeing how the pollsters weren't accurate. Personally, I've believed this for a long time, because I would argue your survey results are already skewed when you're relying on people who are willing to answer an unknown number and actually talk to you. And each of these has a knock on effect down ticket as well.
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Post by mikosann on Nov 9, 2020 8:09:29 GMT -5
I mostly agree with making the attempt at cooperation with republicans, its what Biden campaigned on like it or not, and for the sake of the country you have to try. The real question is how will Moscow Mitch respond. I can't see this republican party compromising on a single thing as long as there are electoral benefits to being obstructionist. Its a playbook they used before to their advantage, not sure he changes it until it stops working, which given the level of delusion in the cult of Trump seems unlikely.
My question is what happens when the GOP refuses to compromise? The base of the party demands no compromise, no cooperation. While I agree Biden has to try, I see no evidence that the GOP will play along or that their scorched earth tactics will cost them electorally, especially in the gerrymandered state and house seats. Saying that you can blame them for the obstruction and show the American people what republicans are doing sounds like politics from a bygone era that just isn't reflective of the political reality we face. In short, it will not work and I think we all know that. To me the bigger question is what do we do when Bidens outreach inevitably fails to move the needle in conservative politics and calling them the assholes that they are fails to register with the deplorable cultists? What then?
Like it or not, AOC and the left wing are part of the big democrat tent. You can't expect them to show up and vote like they did in 2020 for more moderate candidates then trash them right after your party drastically underperformed expectations down ballot. I get what folks are saying about rural areas vs cities. I live and work in rural western PA, and I think I can say fairly confidently that dems aren't winning here no matter what the party wants to believe. Look at the maps showing the counties and how they voted, dems aren't winning rural areas, like ever. On the bright side, the cities and suburban population around them are winning dems the state in the presidential election. There just isn't enough of the deplorables in between cities. Not sure pandering to folks that will never vote for you, and view your party as an existential threat is going to get you anywhere. But hey, lets give it the old college try. I sincerely hope it works out.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Nov 9, 2020 8:47:06 GMT -5
On a purely moral level I find it a little questionable to expect LBGTQ+ people, minorities, muslims or any of the other people who have been made into boogeymen by the Republicans to cooperate with them. It's easy to demand cooperation when the opposition is not an existential threat to you or your family.
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Post by hatoflords on Nov 9, 2020 10:33:23 GMT -5
A good starting point would be to look at who has acknowledged Biden's victory (they're at least engaged enough in reality to know the party is over) and who is still engaging the Trump meme machine (you can't work with crazy).
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Post by mikosann on Nov 9, 2020 11:59:21 GMT -5
A good starting point would be to look at who has acknowledged Biden's victory (they're at least engaged enough in reality to know the party is over) and who is still engaging the Trump meme machine (you can't work with crazy). The trouble will be when those republicans get a primary challenge from the Qanon folks and lose their seat. This scenario played out over Obamas 8 years. The GOP will purge itself of any one willing to cross the partisan divide.
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CommieCanUCK
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Post by CommieCanUCK on Nov 9, 2020 12:06:23 GMT -5
One thing is probably certain: this is the last chance to have real political cooperation before political violence becomes necessary.
If America "cannot survive without cooperation", and the GOP engages in four more years of 2012-2016, then what?
I argue it is preferable that key figures like McConnell, Graham, etc "commit suicide", than let America fall.
Edit: Congrats America on narrowly avoiding re-electing a proto-fascist.
Creepy Uncle Joe is not a great choice, either. But he is objectively better than Donnie, and Jill Biden looks like she will make a great FlotUS.
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