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Post by hatoflords on Jan 19, 2021 2:04:30 GMT -5
The civil war would be an apt comparison. The hypocrisy and naked absurdity of modern conservatism is a rather fitting parallel for that of the Southern states leading into the American Civil War.
The 'states rights' argument is bullshit. Southern States were very happy to leverage the power of the federal government toward their own ends and in violation of the 'rights' of the Northern states when it suited them. State's rights only became important when the Northern states, and the early Republican Party, became too powerful. It's a great reflection of the stupidity of the current cancel culture argument. Republicans are the ones who built this current corporate order, refused to reign in the political influence big business (in fact they drove it to new heights), and said that we should talk with our wallets rather than our laws. Amazing how that's turned around now.
The Southern States idiotically acted like Lincoln's election would be the end of them. There was literally no basis for their belief but irrational fear and the craving for Southern elites to hold the reigns of power. Likewise, present day conservatism seems to constantly think 'radical liberals' are going to completely transform the country overnight. They've been saying this since I was a child. We've had 16 years of Democratic presidents since then, and about as many years of Democratic congressional majorities. I've been hearing this shit for 30 years and I don't understand how anyone still buys into it. In all that time, the country has stayed to a profoundly conservative course on virtually all fronts. If anything, the post-Cold War political order in this country was remarkably bi-partisan in practice up until the Obama presidency when Republicans ceased to behave in a bi-partisan manner and jacked the rhetoric to new heights. There is no basis for this constant fear mongering that Democrats will change the nation overnight.
And like the South, conservatives keep doubling down to the point that if they can't have the nation their way they'd rather end the nation. I don't see another civil war coming. I think Americans are too complacent and lazy for that. I do see the country entering a state of competitive absolutism. Because one side refuses to share power in any way and would rather destroy the nation than maintain it, the other side will inevitably be forced into the same position. Unless people take some fucking responsibility and end this shit right now, draw a line in the sand and say that things have gone too far and there must be consequences. Which probably won't happen.
Good thing I have popcorn.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Jan 19, 2021 2:12:41 GMT -5
Is inciting violence covered under free speech? I feel like legally and morally it isn’t. And the Blood Libel is one of the oldest, most obvious incitements to violence in the history of mankind. I never would have believed so many Americans could believe in it, even a gussied up modern version.
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Post by hatoflords on Jan 19, 2021 2:15:14 GMT -5
Is inciting violence covered under free speech? I feel like legally and morally it isn’t. And the Blood Libel is one of the oldest, most obvious incitements to violence in the history of mankind. I never would have believed so many Americans could believe in it, even a gussied up modern version. It isn't and it shouldn't be
The problem we have is that it's a political party and elected officials doing it and people are acting like cowards, too afraid of appearing 'biased' to demand full accountability. Trump is doomed. I think his fate is sealed. But Trump is only part of the problem. He had hoards of enablers and sycophants who amplified him every step of the way and are still trying to do it and I see little sign that there is any serious effort to hold them accountable for their actions. Politicans who vote to overturn an election result with not a shred of evidence of any wrong should be expelled from their positions. Those who fed into the 'stop steal' narrative (the 'big lie' as Romney coined it), should be charged with sedition.
These assholes betrayed the country for personal gain and should be treated as traitors. They all knew this was a lie. They should have known how it could end and they shouldn't be allowed to run from the consequences of their actions.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Jan 19, 2021 2:19:26 GMT -5
I would be very curious to see Trump on trial for incitement. However, from what interviews I habe seen its basically a jury toss-up, as he covers his ass in almost any speech he makes by tacking on words like peacefully.
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Post by hatoflords on Jan 19, 2021 2:23:08 GMT -5
Trump will be buried by state investigations, civil lawsuits, and his own flimsy finances when he leaves office. That's enough. But Trump himself is only a passing fancy. While Trumpism may live on, Trumpism isn't really about Trump but the American conservative normalization of extremism. He's merely a vessel for the toxin that has been growing there my entire life and that toxin will remain no matter what becomes of him unless it is tackled directly, waiting for the next would be demagogue to point.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Jan 19, 2021 2:29:37 GMT -5
I would be very curious to see Trump on trial for incitement. However, from what interviews I habe seen its basically a jury toss-up, as he covers his ass in almost any speech he makes by tacking on words like peacefully. “Will no one rid me or this troublesome priest? He’s a danger to the whole world. He wants to destroy you and everyone you love. He’s a traitor, and we all know what we do to traitors, don’t we folks? Someone needs to have the courage to act and silence him forever. But peacefully.”
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Post by hatoflords on Jan 19, 2021 2:35:18 GMT -5
“Will no one rid me or this troublesome priest? He’s a danger to the whole world. He wants to destroy you and everyone you love. He’s a traitor, and we all know what we do to traitors, don’t we folks? Someone needs to have the courage to act and silence him forever. But peacefully.” I admit, this made me chuckle.
I hadn't thought of that at all.
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Post by adurot on Jan 19, 2021 2:39:00 GMT -5
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Jan 19, 2021 3:49:33 GMT -5
Is inciting violence covered under free speech? I feel like legally and morally it isn’t. And the Blood Libel is one of the oldest, most obvious incitements to violence in the history of mankind. I never would have believed so many Americans could believe in it, even a gussied up modern version. I would be very curious to see Trump on trial for incitement. However, from what interviews I habe seen its basically a jury toss-up, as he covers his ass in almost any speech he makes by tacking on words like peacefully. I like this lawyer's videos, and the TL;DW is "maybe." There's evidence for both sides of the argument legally, but morally he absolutely is.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Jan 19, 2021 4:01:51 GMT -5
I like this lawyer's videos, and the TL;DW is "maybe." There's evidence for both sides of the argument legally, but morally he absolutely is. Morally he is absolutely. Since he knew what acts he followed up and the language used, he should also be held legally accountable for saying they should march on the Capitol. If someone says we should murder this person and I follow up by telling a fired up mob we should march on this person's house, but maybe not murder them, I should be held responsible for that person's death regardless. That this is even being debated for this riot/weak coup is really telling about US democracy.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Jan 19, 2021 4:09:37 GMT -5
I like this lawyer's videos, and the TL;DW is "maybe." There's evidence for both sides of the argument legally, but morally he absolutely is. Morally he is absolutely. Since he knew what acts he followed up and the language used, he should also be held legally accountable for saying they should march on the Capitol. If someone says we should murder this person and I follow up by telling a fired up mob we should march on this person's house, but maybe not murder them, I should be held responsible for that person's death regardless. That this is even being debated for this riot/weak coup is really telling about US democracy. Yeah, I 100% agree, but it seems like his language/timing might be enough to protect him from any legal responsibility which really sucks.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Jan 19, 2021 4:22:32 GMT -5
Its the often debated freedom of speech difference across the ocean. Our DoJ would have certainly gone to trial over this (and has for a bit more vague incitement), with a lot less wiggle room regarding incitement given the circumstances regarding his speech.
Coincidentally, Americans paid for the lawyer that the politician used as he was taken to trial.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Jan 19, 2021 8:48:43 GMT -5
"Delete this toxic cancel culture BS." Self-reflection never was their strongest feature, huh? Plus the whole "the only cure for bad speech is better speech" nonsense that ignores the fact that World War Two was a thing. Chamberlain, not that I blame him, should in hindsight serve as a warning of what trying to debate someone arguing in bad faith is like. What do you think the preferable cure for bad speech is, if not (more) better speech? As has been mentioned, deplatforming and consequences for lies. Especially a focus on the people grifting and making money off of (in this case) Trumpism. The Nazis in Germany were handed power by the Junkers; Trump wouldn't have been a thing without his wealthy backers. For the same reason the DoJ should come down like a freight-train full of anvils made of bricks on the people peddling sedition for their own monetary gain. It cannot be the case that wealthy special interests think they can get away with supporting authoritarian leaders. They always think they can control them, but in the end the leopards eat their faces too.
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Post by tannhauser42 on Jan 19, 2021 12:01:39 GMT -5
As far as incitement goes, there'll be the tried and true defenses of "I was just joking" and "I was just asking questions".
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Post by tannhauser42 on Jan 19, 2021 12:04:21 GMT -5
I have a really hard time believing someone would be so utterly stupid, but we will see. Feels like most of it was just mindless theft without considering the world didn't end once they breached the capitol and they still had to go home to their families and work. On the other hand, the dude who got his picture taken with his feet on Pelosi's desk had actually stolen a sealed letter off her desk that was addressed to another congressman. I read he rather proudly boasted about leaving her a quarter for it.
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