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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2021 15:29:41 GMT -5
Ok, now, let me just say something, and I want each of you to think long and hard about it. I know that's a concept some will struggle with, but here we go. Almost every post you guys have made about defending Cancel Culture (and I'll come back to that) echos an excuse Whemb made about Trump 4 years ago. 'It's just a few fringe guys' 'you're blowing this out of proportion' 'Liberals are putting up fake posts to make him look bad' 'But that's not what it means' Do you see how easy it is to fall into? Now, back to Cancel Culture. Cancel Culture is just the Hollywood Blacklist Mk 2. You might get a few tokenistic firings but once those take place, the institutions that create those situations remain the same,and, typically, it also creates a much poorer end product.
It's, hilariously, something liberals fought against for years, as they has been primarily the target of it. And, for those of us who are fans of fantasy and science fiction, it's toxic beyond belief. I challenge any of you to name an author of note in this genre that has never held a controversial opinion or written things that didn't get someone riled up. Because I can't think of any.
Even fairly innocuous authors like L Frank Baum have been the target of it at various points.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Jan 21, 2021 15:38:28 GMT -5
Baron, you've yet to present a single shred of evidence. You've pivoted from your original position and are deflecting from it. Furthermore, your comparison is shit. We ask for evidence and you almost immediately flipped to "you're acting just like despic!" and ignoring the request for evidence instead of like... presenting evidence that would back up your claim of "X position is the majority," and then you double down with an incredibly dumb claim that is easily proven wrong, and you dismiss the key supporting evidence as being inaccurate with no proof, and misrepresenting the wins of GOP congresspeople as somehow equal to being indicative of the presidential election, which, even on the surface is stupid due to the vastly different ways the president wins an election and how a congressperson wins an election.
These tactics are things despic has done.
And for the record, no one here is saying "all of cancel culture is good," but we are challenging the idea that you presented of "all of cancel culture is incredibly stupid." Hell, contra points gave me a new perspective on the issues surrounding it.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Jan 21, 2021 16:39:10 GMT -5
I want each of you to think long and hard about it. I know that's a concept some will struggle with You might not mean it this way, but this comes across as incredibly condescending. If people would just think, they would see it your way? See, there is a difference between progressive and right wing 'cancel culture'. Its about which way America should be heading. Yes, you can find someone complaining about something anywhere. What drives 'cancel culture' is good old financial incentives. If writers remain on the right side of the majority of consumers, usually they should have no problems. Nobody wants to boycott GW for writing fascist stories, we want them to take a stance against them in the hobby itself. Now if these writers express personal beliefs that cross the line for the majority of their consumers they might get 'cancelled'. But they're still free to write no? Its just that publishers are no longer interested in such a risky client that might offend their consumers, hitting other products. Its capitalism at its finest, the pendulum is now swinging the other way with liberals, because society is becoming more progressive. 'Fringe'ideas are now becoming the majority and majority ideas from the past are becoming the fringe. These days might be the easiest for controversial authors, as they have more possibilities of directly interacting and financially benefiting from their consumers than ever before. Its similar to why we now expect more from comedians than tired old racial/racist jokes and antisemitic jokes that were approaching the line have now crossed it. That doesn't mean we can't place older authors inside their own timeframe and still enjoy their stories even if we would have hated the author, like Lovecraft. But then again, they were a product of their time, now they would be an exceptionally horrible outlier who I, for one, would not like to give my money to.
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Post by Least censored on the planet! on Jan 21, 2021 17:14:36 GMT -5
Almost every post you guys have made about defending Cancel Culture (and I'll come back to that) echos an excuse Whemb made about Trump 4 years ago. Do you count some of my posts as defending cancel culture? Cancel Culture is just the Hollywood Blacklist Mk 2. Without the “contempt of Congress” putting people in prison part, obviously. It therefore wins the prized “less bad” award. I challenge any of you to name an author of note in this genre that has never held a controversial opinion or written things that didn't get someone riled up. Because I can't think of any. Terry Pratchett? Isn't this man a gem? But also, do he really qualify as a Fantasy author, rather than just very good comedy author or something?
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Jan 21, 2021 17:22:26 GMT -5
I challenge any of you to name an author of note in this genre that has never held a controversial opinion or written things that didn't get someone riled up. Because I can't think of any. Terry Pratchett? Isn't this man a gem? But also, do he really qualify as a Fantasy author, rather than just very good comedy author or something? Speaking of Fantasy authors. Tolkien has been referenced as really edging the line on racism sometimes. Yet his setting is hugely successful, more so now then when he was actually alive. Just because their are questionable elements that can be pointed out in the fiction doesn't mean the overall story can't be enjoyed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2021 17:22:52 GMT -5
And for the record, no one here is saying "all of cancel culture is good," but we are challenging the idea that you presented of "all of cancel culture is incredibly stupid." Hell, contra points gave me a new perspective on the issues surrounding it. Ok, as I pointed out earlier but you apparently didn't take the time to read, it not only does not yield results, or the results it does yield are quickly undone. James Gunn as an example of some of the problems with Cancel Culture. You have someone attacked for tweets made 20 years ago, fired in a knee jerk response, and then brought back on board the moment executives think the coast is clear. Tell me where that solved ANYTHING.
JK Rowling writes a bunch of transphobic garbage, and the Harry Potter fandom then turns to 'she didn't really write the books'. Who did then, did they just materialize? POTTER APPEARIO!
It does nothing to address the underlying issues. Studio management has not, for example, actually done anything about the culture that permitted men like Bill Cosby to act for years. They're more than happy to continue on with business as usual, having thrown the angry mobs a bone that was no longer making them money.
The reason that this does not work is that this whole thing has been done before in the 1950s. Going after actors and others involved in film for their politics reeks to high heaven of the Hollywood Blacklist, one of the various facets of McCarthyism, and one that Hollywood was forced to learn to deal with to survive.
Replace reds and communists with whatever the flavor of the hour is and tell me if this sounds familiar to anyone?
Now, I'm not going to write you all an entire history of the Blacklist, it's many negative impacts on American Culture and the Arts, but the end result was that many of our best writers, directors, and actors were forced to give up being credited for their work or forced out of work entirely, because of their political views, while studios tried to exploit them anyway. This insanity actually created the current issues with the film industry, and is also, unfortunately, why said industry is so resistant to actual change.
It's like trying to put out a fire by pouring gasoline on it.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Jan 21, 2021 17:27:27 GMT -5
So were blaming people's moral compass, for example in your Harry Potter example, for the excesses of capitalism's drive to milk shit? Pushing out Rowling does shit, because she still makes money hand over fist from royalties. When you want to 'cancel' something, you stop patronizing the thing that makes that horrible person money. I.E. stop going to Potter movies
Its the fucking game industry argument with Ubisoft all over again.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2021 17:28:16 GMT -5
Terry Pratchett? Isn't this man a gem? But also, do he really qualify as a Fantasy author, rather than just very good comedy author or something? You must have missed his row with the Daily Mail over Religion.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2021 17:29:31 GMT -5
So were blaming people's moral compass, for example in your Harry Potter example, for the excesses of capitalism's drive to milk shit? Pushing out Rowling does shit, because she still makes money hand over fist from royalties. When you want to 'cancel' something, you stop patronizing the thing that makes that horrible person money. Its the fucking game industry argument with Ubisoft all over again.
You *almost* got it.
In that example, the fans being batshit are trying to change things. The actual result is that Rowling makes the money anyway and does not give a shit. This is why Cancel Culture is stupid. The executives toss them someone expendable, and the masses keep right on buying their shit.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Jan 21, 2021 17:33:40 GMT -5
So were blaming people's moral compass, for example in your Harry Potter example, for the excesses of capitalism's drive to milk shit? Pushing out Rowling does shit, because she still makes money hand over fist from royalties. When you want to 'cancel' something, you stop patronizing the thing that makes that horrible person money. Its the fucking game industry argument with Ubisoft all over again. How the fuck did you get *that* from anything I wrote in that post? From here: How is it the fault of people agitating for 'cancelling' horrible people for how those companies respond? You should be angry at the naked capitalism and lack of moral compass of those companies involved, not the 'cancel culture' of outrage for often very legitimate reasons. You're aiming your arrows at the people agitating for change, instead of the cynics who twist and milk it for as much financial gain as possible. People want a change in culture, actors are one of the most visible parts of said culture.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Jan 21, 2021 17:38:03 GMT -5
1. James Gunn was fired because conservatives went trolling through his past tweets in order to punish him for supporting Trump. He had already apologized, the vast majority of consumers supported him, and Disney looked foolish, so they brought him back.
2. Please show me more than a handful of Potter fans saying JK Rowling didn’t actually write the books. It sounds to me like you’re hearing the equivalent of “she’s dead to me” and responding that she’s still in fact alive. She’s basically getting the Orson Scott Card treatment, which probably means her books will be required reading in middle schools across the nation in a decade or two.
3. The black list under the House Unamerican Activities Committee had the weight of government behind it. There have always been calls to boycott art based on perceived offensiveness or the author’s personal failings. The only difference now is we can watch it all unfold unreal time and comment on it simultaneously.
4. The Me Too movement has lead to a much more open culture where victims/survivors feel more free to discuss their experiences. Yes, like any movement it can be weaponized. Making up allegations or bearing false witness for personal or political gain has been a problem since before Sinai.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2021 17:38:49 GMT -5
People want a change in culture, actors are one of the most visible parts of said culture. And I took time explaining why that does not work.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Jan 21, 2021 17:40:44 GMT -5
By that metric, the great YTMND/Ebaumsworld war of 2005(?) was consequential. Well maybe it was to the guy running Ebaumsworld? I had to look that up btw. I mean cancellation is pretty hard on vulnerable people, she touch on that at 1:27:13 to 1:34:10. Anyway yeah MAGAts will say absolute bullshit about cancel culture, it's what they do about any subject, why do we even care about what they say ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ? ...Vulnerable people have always been vulnerable? I hate to echo Manchu, but at this point it feels like you’re taking phenomena that have always been happening and then trying to fit them into a more modern label and pretend it’s a new, distinct problem? I’ll give the video another chance and see if I get a better idea what you’re driving at.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Jan 21, 2021 17:42:22 GMT -5
Terry Pratchett? Isn't this man a gem? But also, do he really qualify as a Fantasy author, rather than just very good comedy author or something? You must have missed his row with the Daily Mail over Religion. Was he cancelled? I seem to remember him being a respected author whose works were still published. I wrote a letter to the editor once about religion, and someone wrote a rebuttal. Have I been canceled?
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Jan 21, 2021 17:43:20 GMT -5
People want a change in culture, actors are one of the most visible parts of said culture. And I took time explaining why that does not work. And I'm trying to explain that while that might not change the entire industry, it still puts out the message that we no longer want horrible people to play in our favorite movies/tv shows/what have you. To circle back, I for one wouldn't want to see Trump Jr playing the main lead in The Mandalorian, why is drawing that line such an issue? When do the personal opinions of a public personality become repulsive enough for me or any other member of the general public to advocate their removal from the scene? Same reason I won't go to any Harry Potter movie or no longer buy Ubisoft, because the studio is still paying a terrible person with a % of my money. Yeah I might be the outlier now, but hopefully not in the future.
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