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Post by Haighus on Jun 25, 2024 5:05:54 GMT -5
Firstly, I don't think anyone should be extradited to the US for any crime whilst the death penalty remains on the books as a matter of principle.
Secondly, Assange was charged with 17 counts of espionage, which definitely does carry the possibility of a death sentence.
As I said- standing trial in Sweden for sexual assault is something that should have happened. But the extradition to the US for espionage charges is bad, especially as it has significant implications for press freedom and accountability against the US government.
Also, whilst the extradition proceedings were happening, Assange was held in Belmarsh for 5 years. That wasn't a choice, most of that was without charge (the first 50 weeks were for violating bail), and is frankly pretty terrifying. The Ecuadorian embassy was a choice, Belmarsh wasn't. There were a great many other ways to manage Assange other than bunging him into one of the UKs highest security prisons without charge. That could be anyone that the UK government is willing to hold in one of our most horrible prisons without charge at the behest of the US.
Edit: forgot to mention that he was largely held in solitary confinement, which is well understood to be torture at this point.
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herzlos
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Post by herzlos on Jun 25, 2024 5:57:59 GMT -5
Embassy was his choice. Entirely his choice. He was free to leave at any time, but didn’t want to face the consequences of his own actions. Nor have I seen a particularly convincing argument why Sweden should’ve taken extradition to the US off the table. Folks have mentioned the US having death sentences - and that bit is true. But I don’t recall seeing any of the pending charges attracting the death penalty.
It wasn't really much of a choice. Hide in an embassy or end up somewhere like Gitmo. I'm also not sure if the death penalty would have been off the table, Treason has the death penalty and I thought they were arguing it initially though I don't know if you can be convicted of treason for a country you're not a citizen of or in at the time. For comparison, Manning got a 35-year sentence for supplying some of the information.
I suspect he was probably also concerned about being involved in an unfortunate accident whilst in US custody. It's not as if the US has a good track record of looking after prisoners let alone ones it feels are foreign agents.
I feel that Sweden could have tried to deal with the accusations about Assange without risking handing him over to the US, though it felt a lot like the Swedish Police were more interested in getting him to Sweden than in dealing with the accusations. Assange at least gave the impression of trying to cooperate whilst remaining safe. It could be that the Swedish hands were tied though.
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herzlos
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Post by herzlos on Jun 25, 2024 5:59:48 GMT -5
Edit: forgot to mention that he was largely held in solitary confinement, which is well understood to be torture at this point. I suspect that's why he made the deal with the US. After 7 years without being able to go outside the embassy, his health was obviously deteriorating. After a further 5 years of mostly solitary he'll have been completely broken and probably quite happy to accept a death penalty to get it over with.
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mdgv2
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Post by mdgv2 on Jun 25, 2024 6:07:07 GMT -5
He was able to leave the Embassy though. At any point, he could’ve left.
Self inflicted harm is self inflicted.
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herzlos
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Post by herzlos on Jun 25, 2024 6:14:35 GMT -5
Do you think many people would have chosen to left the embassy in his position? I wouldn't. It's a completely false choice.
I'm not supporting his crimes (alleged or otherwise), but I can see why he acted the way he did afterwards.
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Post by Haighus on Jun 25, 2024 6:49:09 GMT -5
He was able to leave the Embassy though. At any point, he could’ve left. Self inflicted harm is self inflicted. Still avoiding the Belmarsh issue, and the death penalty issue.
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Post by Haighus on Jun 25, 2024 6:50:31 GMT -5
I'm also not sure if the death penalty would have been off the table, Treason has the death penalty and I thought they were arguing it initially though I don't know if you can be convicted of treason for a country you're not a citizen of or in at the time. For comparison, Manning got a 35-year sentence for supplying some of the information. He has been charged with espionage, which can result in the death penalty. The law is from 1917.
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mdgv2
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Post by mdgv2 on Jun 25, 2024 7:13:29 GMT -5
Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time.
Glib, yes.
But also accurate. Just like every Phreedumb grifter demands everyone but himself be held to account. You simply can’t go around kicking people in the bollocks, then act the victim when someone thumps you back. And that’s what he’s done. And made a pretty penny doing so to boot.
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Post by Haighus on Jun 25, 2024 7:37:37 GMT -5
Plenty of laws are immoral though. Something being criminal doesn't mean it is wrong.
I'd argue exposing US warcrimes and hypocrisy that have been covered up is an example of such.
We can all think of bullshit or evil laws. For example, section 28 was only repealed in 2003! Weed is criminalised. Jaywalking is a crime in many countries. Pirating academic literature for researchers from a poor background. Etc. Etc.
Anyway, I don't think any crime warrants torture, especially when the torture is done outside the jurisdiction of the original crime without charge.
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mdgv2
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Post by mdgv2 on Jun 25, 2024 7:42:27 GMT -5
Not just the war crimes but all sorts of other random, stolen documents.
If a mugger manages to fleece a drug dealer, that doesn’t excuse their mugging of everyone else.
As for torture and “whoops he accidentally brutally cut off his own head whilst shaving before the trial” stuff? Sorry, but I’m not gonna entertain “what-ifs”.
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Post by Haighus on Jun 25, 2024 7:45:46 GMT -5
It isn't a what if. He was kept in solitary confinement for years without charge.
Sure he released more than should have been released, but those aren't the ones the US is upset about.
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herzlos
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Post by herzlos on Jun 25, 2024 7:54:53 GMT -5
Oh he broke the law and should face a fair and reasonable prosecution for it. But I don't believe that's happened or would have happened if he'd handed himself over to the US. You could argue that what he did was mostly for the public good (exposing US war crimes, not exposing US spies identities), but that should have been done correctly through a proper humanitarian or press agency and not some guy dumping unredacted documents on the internet. Do you think he should be executed or given years of solitary confinement for it?
Do you trust the US Government to do a proper job of it?
I'll be honest in that I don't. I fully expected that if extradited to Sweden he would have been kidnapped at some point in the journey and surface in the US a few months later looking terrible to face trial. I'd have been stunned if he'd made it into a Swedish police station or prison.
I'm actually surprised he stayed in Belmarsh for as long as he did.
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Post by Haighus on Jun 25, 2024 8:09:52 GMT -5
Most of those big releases were first laundered through news organisations like the Guardian though. Publishing them tended to come after journalists had read through them and broken the story or if some kind of legal injunction was placed on the news organisations preventing publication (you can read the Wikipedia page of Wikileaks publications, some of the injunctions are scary, like for the Minton Report).
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Post by A Town Called Malus on Jun 25, 2024 9:28:20 GMT -5
Not just the war crimes but all sorts of other random, stolen documents. So? I never agreed to not share US state secrets if they came into my possession, or swore any oath to that effect. Whoever stole them and passed them to me broke the law, yes, but are you arguing that literally every single person in the entire world is beholden to US law concerning the proper handling of documents classified by the US government? If some reporter got passed a load of North Korean classified documents proving that Kim Jong Un was personally killing babies for fun, would you argue that whoever got given them should be extradited to North Korea for sharing them?
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mdgv2
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Post by mdgv2 on Jun 25, 2024 10:21:42 GMT -5
Receiving them and publishing them are not the same thing.
I refer back to my mugger equivalence.
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