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Post by Haighus on Nov 8, 2023 6:34:24 GMT -5
I think in the Israel/hostage situation, Israel had to do *something*. This probably wasn't the right thing, and now a lot of those hostages are most likely dead, either by the air strikes or because Hamas have killed them, but I don't think there were many other military strike options open to them and they could not go in with ground forces at that point - other than special forces attempts, which I am sure will have happened as well but we have not heard about. But the killing and atrocity that took place within Israel were so bad, there was no way that they could not do something in response. I am not saying I agree with it, and now many more innocents will die, but that was the very predictable outcome. I disagree this was the only response Israel had, although I agree it was predictable. I think this is the easy option for Israel's government and is the option a weak leader takes. It is often much harder to respond proportionately and humanely rather than lashing out, and I don't think Netenyahu has the political strength or inclination to do that. Netenyahu essentially shat the bed on this one and this is a salvage operation. For example, I genuinely think an early hostage swap was feasible, and would have opened the door for reducing Israeli collateral damage. The original Hamas attacks were over a month ago now. |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Nov 8, 2023 7:26:43 GMT -5
Preferably you would want your country's leaders to put preserving the lives of their citizens over any sort of revenge. The events on the 7th were terrible, but there was no further immediate danger. Hamas wasn't going to be able to kill an additional 250 people in Israel immediately afterward, but those 250 hostages were (mostly) still alive the day after and were (Israeli) lives that can/could still be lost.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Nov 9, 2023 8:29:59 GMT -5
The mail- and service worker union has now joined the strike against Tesla. The Norwegian dockworker union is reportedly mulling joining in as well.
My favourite takeaway from this so far has been one poster on a different forum complaining that it is against federal law for postal workers to sympathy strike.
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Post by Haighus on Nov 9, 2023 8:59:22 GMT -5
The mail- and service worker union has now joined the strike against Tesla. The Norwegian dockworker union is reportedly mulling joining in as well. My favourite takeaway from this so far has been one poster on a different forum complaining that it is against federal law for postal workers to sympathy strike. Er... US federal law...? |
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skyth
OT Cowboy
Posts: 487
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Post by skyth on Nov 9, 2023 9:09:08 GMT -5
Don't you know that US law supersedes all other nation's laws?  |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Nov 9, 2023 10:26:03 GMT -5
Not that different from people invoking the 1st outside of the US.
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Post by Least censored on the planet! on Nov 9, 2023 20:20:54 GMT -5
My favourite takeaway from this so far has been one poster on a different forum complaining that it is against federal law for postal workers to sympathy strike. The one that complains that we are not censored enough? |
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Post by Haighus on Nov 21, 2023 7:58:22 GMT -5
Things continue to get more dire in Gaza. The death toll is growing rapidly and particularly the toll of children is horrific- probably >5000 so far. Statements that claim the deaths are justified because a majority killed are also Hamas militants are very grim and pretty implausible given the context that half of deaths are children so far.
I have to say I find the Israeli evidence for major Hamas operations under every hospital unconvincing, especially in the backdrop of the Israeli forces making little effort to actually prevent loss of life of Palestinian civilians or indeed politicians openly stating that a humanitarian crisis aids their military goals. My general response to the videos released after the raid on Al Shifa hospital is "is that it? A handful of assault rifles and some laptops?". It was sold as a major command and control hub and the lack of convincing evidence of such over a week on from the occupation of the hospital does not bode well.
Frankly, the Israeli response is grossly disproportionate, and almost certainly constitutes war crimes. Given the very genocidal rhetoric coming from senior Israeli figures (such as talking about a second Nakba), I think it is likely we are seeing a genocide unfolding.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Nov 21, 2023 11:03:05 GMT -5
Yeah, I don’t understand how the rank and file IDF are capable of carrying out these attacks. I’m sure there are some scary true believers among the ranks, but those should be the (large) minority, not the bulk of the IDF.
Although I admit it’s been 20 years since I was close with serving IDF soldiers, and those have some trying 20 years.
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Post by pacific on Nov 21, 2023 11:31:10 GMT -5
I think it's probably a case of things being a shade of grey there though Haighus. There are many documented incidents of Hamas using hospitals, schools, setting up firing positions literally over the shoulders of women and children.
The loss of civilian life in this conflict is utterly despicable - but lets not pretend here that the IAF is just bombing or targeting civic infrastructure indiscriminately. Hamas *knows* that the IAF (at least in terms of their MO) will attempt to avoid collateral damage, and uses these rules of engagement to its advantage.
In terms of the IAF soldiers carrying out these attacks, think also that for the most part a pilot pressing the fire button, or the artilleryman loading a shell or missile and firing at co-ordinates, does not see the direct impact in terms of loss of life - of bodies strewn or bloody impact craters. I therefore don't think you need to be a 'true believer' to be doing it, but more likely just devoid of imagination or emotional intelligence. I should think in most instances they would have a belief that what they are doing is a grudging necessity; some realisation will come in later years of their life in the form of PTSD or other traumas, if other conflicts of recent years are anything to go by. But again, contrast with Hamas fighters who presumably looked their victims in the eyes as they carried out acts of such utter depravity that I cannot write them.
I have no doubt that there are psychopaths in the IAF who may ultimately do similar things in the IAF during the ground occupation, but such things are ostensibly forbidden and I don't think you can have an equivalence of the methods of violence there.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Nov 21, 2023 11:32:42 GMT -5
People tend to get very easily pressured into a certain type of mentality. You don't have to be some brainwashed psychopath to go along with comitting atrocities or war crimes.
You see it in almost every war, but very few armies have been instilling a mentality so consistently over 7 decades. The IDF was founded and run for decades by people casually commiting war crimes (you just have to read up on Sharon's military service for example, it's like a brief history of casual IDF violence) and the current leadership generation served under those very same founders/leaders.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Nov 21, 2023 11:52:17 GMT -5
I think it's probably a case of things being a shade of grey there though Haighus. There are many documented incidents of Hamas using hospitals, schools, setting up firing positions literally over the shoulders of women and children. The loss of civilian life in this conflict is utterly despicable - but lets not pretend here that the IAF is just bombing or targeting civic infrastructure indiscriminately. Hamas *knows* that the IAF (at least in terms of their MO) will attempt to avoid collateral damage, and uses these rules of engagement to its advantage. The key issue here is proportionality. Even if Hamas does what Israel says it does, it does not give carte blanche response wise. To say that Hamas abuses the rules of war is true, but then why have rules at all if you have it dependent on some sort of gentleman's agreement? Nobody should condemn Israel for defending itself, what we should condemn them for is the way they're doing it. Proportionality is a difficult thing to assess, there is no easy sum to make. But when the Israeli ambassador to the US admits its not possible to distinguish terrorist from civilian death tolls in Gaza, how can they even begin to assess proportionality? That's basically admitting you're dropping bombs and hoping for the best. That is even without going into the legality of besieging 3 million people. |
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Nov 21, 2023 11:55:51 GMT -5
But again, contrast with Hamas fighters who presumably looked their victims in the eyes as they carried out acts of such utter depravity that I cannot write them. I've seen some sources claiming that they were drugged up to their ears, although I obviously can't confirm it. |
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Post by Haighus on Nov 21, 2023 14:50:13 GMT -5
I think it's probably a case of things being a shade of grey there though Haighus. There are many documented incidents of Hamas using hospitals, schools, setting up firing positions literally over the shoulders of women and children. The loss of civilian life in this conflict is utterly despicable - but lets not pretend here that the IAF is just bombing or targeting civic infrastructure indiscriminately. Hamas *knows* that the IAF (at least in terms of their MO) will attempt to avoid collateral damage, and uses these rules of engagement to its advantage. Sort of? Ultimately, two wrongs do not make a right. Also, half of Gaza city is now rubble. That is a lot of Hamas militants if all of those buildings were hiding soldiers. There isn't really any evidence that the IDF is actually trying to avoid civilian casualties and that is in concordance with what their leaders are saying. |
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Post by Haighus on Nov 21, 2023 14:54:07 GMT -5
Yeah, I don’t understand how the rank and file IDF are capable of carrying out these attacks. I’m sure there are some scary true believers among the ranks, but those should be the (large) minority, not the bulk of the IDF. Although I admit it’s been 20 years since I was close with serving IDF soldiers, and those have some trying 20 years. Well, a lot of research has been done over the years into how ordinary people can commit horrific acts in the right circumstances. Most famous is the Milgram experiment, in which most people were entirely willing to give lethal electric shocks to another human if told to by a man in a lab coat. We also have the historic experiences of various regimes. |
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