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Post by semipotentwalrus on Oct 9, 2023 8:23:35 GMT -5
I'm deeply disappointed in a lot of supposedly "leftist" people gloating about the deliberate murder of civilians. Indiscriminate murder is not self-defence. Breaking into bomb shelters where people have taken refuge to avoid dying to rocket strikes, gunning everyone inside down and posting it to social media to gloat about it is not "decolonization", it's barbarism of the sort that is intrinsically morally reprehensible, not just when it happens to people you care about. I don't give a shit that Israel's arguably an Apartheid state or that they have a long history of abusing Palestinians in this context, you don't parade the broken bodies of civilians in the streets to let people spit on them. What the fuck is wrong with you?? It in no way improves the situation for anyone and even if it did you don't murder people.
Conversely, I'm deeply disappointed in the "defenders of democracy" calling for Israel to flatten Gaza or similar. This sort of genocidal bullshit is, again, intrinsically morally reprehensible, not just when it happens to people you care about. The death toll in the Israel-Palestine conflict is pretty lopsided; it'd be nice if people gave a shit outside of spectacular events like this.
From a political perspective it'll be interesting to see how Netanyahu's government will be impacted by this once the immediate dust settles. They dropped the ball real hard on this one.
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Post by herzlos on Oct 9, 2023 8:27:14 GMT -5
Given that Israel is cutting off Gaza from power, water and food, a lot more innocent people are going to die
That can't be legal on the world stage, could it?
They are in the UN so presumably need to pretend to follow the human rights and refugee conventions?
I genuinely don't know why the rest of the world just continues to sit about and watch it happen.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Oct 9, 2023 8:30:39 GMT -5
Given that Israel is cutting off Gaza from power, water and food, a lot more innocent people are going to die
That can't be legal on the world stage, could it?
They are in the UN so presumably need to pretend to follow the human rights and refugee conventions?
I genuinely don't know why the rest of the world just continues to sit about and watch it happen.
I mean, when has Isreal ever adhered to international law or suffered consequences for not doing so? The Israeli state is in daily violation at this point. |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Oct 9, 2023 8:37:10 GMT -5
I'm deeply disappointed in a lot of supposedly "leftist" people gloating about the deliberate murder of civilians. Indiscriminate murder is not self-defence. Breaking into bomb shelters where people have taken refuge to avoid dying to rocket strikes, gunning everyone inside down and posting it to social media to gloat about it is not "decolonization", it's barbarism of the sort that is intrinsically morally reprehensible, not just when it happens to people you care about. I don't give a shit that Israel's arguably an Apartheid state or that they have a long history of abusing Palestinians in this context, you don't parade the broken bodies of civilians in the streets to let people spit on them. What the fuck is wrong with you?? It in no way improves the situation for anyone and even if it did you don't murder people. Conversely, I'm deeply disappointed in the "defenders of democracy" calling for Israel to flatten Gaza or similar. This sort of genocidal bullshit is, again, intrinsically morally reprehensible, not just when it happens to people you care about. The death toll in the Israel-Palestine conflict is pretty lopsided; it'd be nice if people gave a shit outside of spectacular events like this. From a political perspective it'll be interesting to see how Netanyahu's government will be impacted by this once the immediate dust settles. They dropped the ball real hard on this one. I have seen some pro-Palestine demonstrations that are making insane comments. Even if these people weren't civilians, plenty of Israeli civilians disagree with how the government acts. People act like this is their local sports team winning a game. As for Netanyahu, I wonder if he will try to push through his autocratic reforms now that the country is distracted. |
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Post by pacific on Oct 9, 2023 9:02:13 GMT -5
Now will definitely be the time - look at what happened to the US following 9/11 with the Patriot Act and the rest of it, and people quite willingly giving up their freedoms for the increase in security.
Completely agree on the dislike of Israelis for their government and that was evident with the protests over the erosion of the institutions. My impression of Israel (from visiting the country, and have a good friend who lives in Tel Aviv) is that so much of the trouble is caused by the religious fundamentalists in government, who are a relatively smaller percentage of population, but have a lot of political power; the expansion of settlements, the persecution of Palestinians, and the continuous poking under the ribs that occasionally causes this sort of backlash. Note that I am not saying this attack is justified and the scenes shown in the country are just utterly abhorrent - but that is where a lot of the discontent that fuels Hamas stems from. Aside from the fact the Palestinians are just so fucking poor.
Most Israelis I have met who aren't within this category I would say are no different to modern Europeans in terms of their sensibilities and outlook on life, and a lot of Tel Aviv (if you take out the security guards and metal detectors bracketing the entrances to shopping malls!) almost feels like Barcelona if you picked it up and dropped it in the middle east. I thought I would add that comment for anyone who hasn't visited, as so much of the news will show Israelis in Orthodox dress (men, as you never see the women) and it will give the impression that all of Israel is like that - and it is not.
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Post by Haighus on Oct 10, 2023 9:26:57 GMT -5
It has never been maintained particularly well. For example, Israel's colonial actions are regularly condemned as illegal by the UN, but nothing happens because Israel is regionally powerful with strong support from nations incl. the US. Frankly, this war has been barbaric for years. I think it is pretty barbaric to displace people from their homes at gunpoint on a regular basis or repeatedly bomb hospitals and schools. Nothing about the current situation stands out except the scale. Not going to discount the potential for Russian involvement. I hope this doesn't come off as hair-splitting 'well ackshually', but I want to point out that I never said that Palestinian-affiliated militias were the only ones breaking international law.
My fear is that with the opening salvo of this particular chapter of the conflict - you're right in pointing out that this is a rolling thing, that was my bad for referring to the events of the weekend via what it seems to have been deemed as by the Media - has been so shocking, mainly on the part of Hamas. Hawks in Israel are already keen for retribution, and I can't see Israel settling for just chasing Hamas back into the Gaza strip. There's already talk of an invasive ground war. If, worst case scenario, Israel decides to re-take the Gaza strip, it will absolutely be a bloodbath. It's completely plausible that Israel would, in some way, try to de-populate Muslims from Gaza. Which is absolutely genocide, no matter how you look at it. I don't want people to get the wrong idea about me being some kind of "Israel always right, I love zion, Netanyahu needs more depleted uranium munitions because god told me so"-wacko here - I absolutely, vehemently dislike the Netanyahu government, I've been involved in pro-Israel-Palestine-peace political advocacy (I'm not gonna say what side bc job stuff, fill in the blanks for yourself). But I think to launch a military operation like this, with the intent from the get, to inflict as much emotional suffering, as much horror, as much terror into the enemy across a wide front, and coordinate and even document the mass-torture and -murder of civilians is a cold-blooded escalation.
However, before all this is was absolutely possible for the international community to condemn overzealous action by Israel - we could at the very least discuss sanctions, presidents and prime ministers could try to appeal for calm, there could be efforts, if nothing else to broker peace talks. The expectation that Israel, Palestine, and the rest of the world were at least pretending to try to uphold a rules-based international order gave an inroads to criticize all involved when it failed. Again, I won't say that there was a good job done there, indeed, the events unfolding in Israel today are evidence that the international community has consummately failed to properly do this.
But if Israel retaliate, with their huge military budget and overgrown military industrial complex, with their wealthy Western allies, with their well equipped, well trained army, it'll be a curb-stomp, it'll be ethnic cleansing, and the West, for all the work is has done since Russia invaded Ukraine to shore up international cooperation and re-rehabilitate the idea that aggressive nations can't just do things because "who the fuck is gonna stop us? the poor country we just invaded? lol". Again, not something the West has been historically good at, but it's better than the alternative that nations like Russia want.
nfe & @disciple of Fate I think it's interesting that Netanyahu has invoked Isis's handiwork in recent comments. While obviously there is the connotation of violent Islamist group, I think it's worth pointing out that Isis emerged a few years into the anarchy and lawlessness of post-invasion Iraq (I want to say the first Isis kill-houses started to be uncovered by US Marines in about 2005??? might be wrong there) and seemed to be trying to project power and intimidate their foes with their ostentatious treatment of the enemy. Whereas what strikes me as new, is that this is actively crossing from friendly territory, into Israel, with the object of abducting people from their homes to then carry this kind of thing out, which takes quite a bit of pre-meditation, but also on a huge scale, and the knowledge that Israel will hit back, almost instantly.
I'm gonna close this by saying that this whole conflict is shades of grey, and they start with a dark charcoal. Palestinians have been kicked off their ancestral lands by imperial powers they had no ability nor recourse to answer back to. They were supplanted by colonists, who have brutalized and ghettoized them, legislated to dehumanize them and make it easier to sweep abuses underneath the rug. Even now, Israel keeps them in the dark and bombards them for the actions of a tiny number of extremists.
Israelis were sold out by their European neighbors, and nearly exterminated in Europe. They rightfully rejected moving back into their old homes - who would? - and found a new one, where their culture had originated from, where many Jewish communities, against the odds, survived. There they found they were surrounded by enemies, and everyday are blasted by rhetoric about how they will finish the job this time - not from a fringe minority, but by the leaders of regional powers. With the Shoah still in living memory, while I don't agree with how they've treated their neighbors, I kind of get it. Why would you give them a chance, when less than 100 years ago they nearly succeeded? Unless you are an Israeli, unless you are Palestinian, I think it's hard for us to really grasp the depth and complexity of this conflict. We can only watch in horror as it develops, maybe broadens, and bear the collective guilt that our governments could and should have done more when there was time.
I think a lot of this is fair. The next few weeks and months are going to be harrowing in Palestine. I do think the rule of law thing has only ever been consistently applied to enemies of the US (+ major US allies) in "Western" media. Iran would be a great example with the democratic government having been couped through US and UK backing. |
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skyth
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Post by skyth on Oct 10, 2023 10:20:37 GMT -5
There's a Youtube commenter that I like (Beau of the Fifth Column) that says something to the effect of international politics are a poker game where everyone's cheating and that nations don't have friends, they only have interests. Very relevant to the situation.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Oct 10, 2023 11:13:57 GMT -5
Beau has a bunch of good takes, just bear in mind that he's literally done time for trafficking (not the sexual kind, but still). He seems to have genuinely reformed and become a pretty decent person since, but caveat emptor and all that.
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Post by Haighus on Oct 10, 2023 11:35:02 GMT -5
Beau has a bunch of good takes, just bear in mind that he's literally done time for trafficking (not the sexual kind, but still). He seems to have genuinely reformed and become a pretty decent person since, but caveat emptor and all that. I find him particularly interesting as a progressive rural USAian. Not something I come across often. |
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skyth
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Post by skyth on Oct 10, 2023 16:00:07 GMT -5
I know he has a video where he owns up to his mistakes in his past, though if memory serves, he didn't give many details. I do like that he explains why he is saying what he is saying in his commentary.
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Post by pacific on Oct 11, 2023 8:46:35 GMT -5
I worry about minor breaks of speed-limit or maybe being rude to someone on the phone, and I struggle to own up to those, let alone *human trafficking*. Jesus wept, the powers of Youtube!
Moving over the thread discussion from Ukraine, about the bodies being paraded.. I am not sure how you walk back from this. It sounds as though ground forces are being prepared to move in, which will really up the casualty figures and overall human misery.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Oct 12, 2023 12:54:53 GMT -5
The fuck are you talking about?
Edit: this is in response to a now-deleted post.
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Post by Haighus on Oct 12, 2023 12:56:32 GMT -5
The fuck are you talking about? I think they are so far down the rabbit hole that they have lost touch with reality. |
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Post by Least censored on the planet! on Oct 12, 2023 13:14:29 GMT -5
Idiot alert, idiot alert! [edit] Idiot was removed
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Oct 12, 2023 15:31:56 GMT -5
Pretty bizarre to see half of the Isreali government openly declaring war crimes by shutting off water, electricity and food supplies, while the other half is emphasizing that they will naturally follow international law in this conflict.
I wonder when the US will try to put on the brakes.
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