|
Post by easye on Apr 11, 2023 10:42:21 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by adurot on Apr 11, 2023 11:33:54 GMT -5
I’m pretty sure they explicitly said the drills were in response to the visit.
|
|
|
Post by Disciple of Fate on Apr 11, 2023 12:47:25 GMT -5
I’m pretty sure they explicitly said the drills were in response to the visit. In classic dictatorship fashion, they said it was in response to "provocations" by "separatists" and "external forces". Always the victims.
|
|
|
Post by pacific on Apr 12, 2023 9:01:37 GMT -5
One thing you have to remember about Taiwan is that the PRC views it in much the same way as a civil war that has never ended. Reading about it, I don't think it's almost too much of a stretch to say it is similar in some ways to the American civil war. But imagine that had gone on for decades and there was a hold-out confederate state (which was actually doing pretty well, thank you very much). And then if European policy makers decided to visit the leader of that state, how that would be treated by the North? I am not saying this is correct, but I think it is certainly the way many of the Chinese (and those governing the PRC) view it and why they have a historical claim to Taiwan. Of a breakaway state that is destined to be brought back into the fold.
Reading some quite interesting analysis on Taiwan about how the government there has to continue to take a balancing act of giving the impression that a diplomatic re-unification is one day possible, even if you don't intend to go through with it. Because the moment that is taken away, and the carrot isn't being waved under China's nose, then that will give the hardliners within the PRC government every excuse they need to take the 'other option'.
As a side note, I was actually quite amused to read that initially after the formation of the PRC the US had something of a reverse role, and was more active in trying to stop military action against China from Taiwan, rather than the other way around.
|
|
|
Post by Disciple of Fate on Apr 12, 2023 9:52:15 GMT -5
Both Taiwan and China claim to be the 'true' China, Taiwan has some problematic claims in the area too. The idea that some states aren't real is an old trope, used by imperial powers throughout history. There is no reason to consider the CCP position on this, just as we don't consider it for Putin on Ukraine.
Taiwan's balancing act will only hold for as long as the CCP considers it can't do it by force. Not since Chiang has the KMT had any real idea to take back the mainland, they are simply too small.
|
|
|
Post by pacific on Apr 12, 2023 10:09:42 GMT -5
There is no reason to consider the CCP position on this, just as we don't consider it for Putin on Ukraine. Can you expand on what you mean by this please? Started typing a reply but possible I have got the wrong end of the stick. I should re-iterate that I was referencing what the Chinese position is on this with respect to Taiwan, not my own beliefs.
|
|
|
Post by Disciple of Fate on Apr 12, 2023 11:55:46 GMT -5
I did not mean to imply this was your position, it was clear to me that you meant the CCP postion.
The idea that the lack of a formal ceasefire makes the idea of an ongoing civil war any more legitimate. Taiwan and China are in essence no different from North and South Korea, a conflict that is technically unresolved but has seen very few armed hostilities afterwards. At this point there are two distinct states, even if both governments claim that they're not. The population should not be subjected to this over centuries old imperial lines on a map.
The idea of states that shouldn't 'exist' because of *insert reason* is older than any living person. Yet we see it come up through people like Putin pretending Soviet successor states aren't real states or the CCP pretending that events that transpired decades/centuries ago somehow invalidate all subsequent history.
This is what I mean by not entertaining the CCP argument, because it's a slippery slope based on claims from an imperial past. By CCP logic, a lot of countries in the world shouldn't exist, but their hypocrisy is always crying about the importance of national sovereignty.
|
|
|
Post by pacific on Apr 13, 2023 3:43:07 GMT -5
Thanks for clarifying @disciple of fate - yes I agree, there is no-where that a line would not be drawn as you can just keep going back through history and stating that X has a claim to Y.
I assume ultimately it has to be what the people themselves want. A relatively small percentage of people in Taiwan, when surveyed, want unification with China. It's funny that you mention Korea as I was surprised, while living in the South some years ago, about how many Koreans in that country do not want unification with the North. Yes they have a shared ancestry, ethnicity and language and were forcibly split by a foreign aggressor (first the Japanese, then in proxy war by the Soviet Union and US) but so much time has passed, and there is such a disparity of wealth, that many in the South don't want to lose what they have (fairly recently) gained in terms of social growth, democracy, industry and prosperity. I had read that many felt the same way in Germany prior to 1989, and West and East had a wealth disparity of something like 1:4. I had read estimates that the disparity between South and North are something like 1:20 and the social engineering and control of education in North Korea make those practised by the GDPR look like a liberal free-for-all by comparison. So, if there were some sort of collapse in the North (and in the unlikely circumstance of China not simply stepping in and controlling by proxy) I can't imagine how that re-integration would take place. Yes they have hundreds of years of shared ancestry, but the last seventy years have moved them so far apart from each other. You can only imagine it would be an extremely difficult and drawn out process of reconciliation, assuming it happened in a peaceful manner.
I did actually meet someone from the North who had escaped into the South, a woman in her 30s. She had learned to swim, become extremely fit and then literally went out in the early hours of a morning and swam down the river connecting to the two countries, managing to avoid the North Korean patrols that exist just to prevent those attempts. Her only family was an elderly mother who had encouraged her to go and make a life for herself (usually the threat over action on remaining family members stops people from attempting escape). Upon arrival in the South there is a special government agency which has the task of re-educating anyone that arrives from the North, and people can sometimes stay at these clinic-schools for many, many months - there is essentially a lifetime of brainwashing that has to be undone. The woman in question settled happily, married a South Korean guy (met at a swimming club incidentally!) so in some ways is a nice end to that story, although she would never see her mother again. It does make you think about the horrors that go on in the North, and hope that things will somehow improve one day.
Sorry have really gone off on a tangent there!
|
|
|
Post by Disciple of Fate on Apr 13, 2023 5:55:00 GMT -5
For most Taiwanese, the link with the mainland is tenuous at best. Sure, most would identify as Han Chinese by descent, but only a small portion of those arrived after the 19th century. Due to the Japanese occupation in the first half of the 20th century, the closest link to mainland China would be the Qing Dynasty (discounting the 4 shortyears between 1945-1949), with only the refugees of 1949 having any closer connection and direct connection.
The comparison with Korea is recognizable. There are no people left alive that can remember an unoccupied and unified country in either Taiwan or Korea. Most of the ideas behind unification are based on very nationalist/imperialist principles and education.
|
|
|
Post by easye on Jun 5, 2023 10:24:38 GMT -5
China's new Defense Minister is out on the diplomatic circuit and taking shots at the US's ability to protect their Asian Pacific allies and capabilities.
I am also seeing a lot of right-wing intellectuals out there try to gin up a new Cold War mentality with China. I find it harder to swallow, since they were all in on the OG Cold War with Russia. Seems a bit "One-Trick Pony" and trying to secure their own meal tickets rather than anything else. What have been your reactions to it?
|
|
|
Post by Disciple of Fate on Jun 5, 2023 13:08:45 GMT -5
Won't it sort of develop as a Cold War simply based on the opposing ideological views though?
The US at least tries to go beyond lip service to human rights for the most part (it's like 51-49 so to speak), China does not care at all. China supports some absolutely atrocious regimes in North Korea, Russia and Iran. The US has not done great on this with countries like Israel or Egypt, but at the moment it at least tries to be better on the whole. Plus the whole issue of China making territorial claims on multiple US allies in the region.
But this is about more than just the US, it has many countries behind it that care and do much better when it comes to advocating for and trying to improve the situation of human rights around the world, as flawed as those attempts may be at times.
But as you say, it is sort of ridiculous to see this coming from the US right wing, given what their party is trying to do back home. All they see is a threat to their power, becoming difficult to present this as an ideological issue at this point.
|
|
|
Post by pacific on Jun 6, 2023 2:58:35 GMT -5
I suppose a lot of the right-wing ideology and marketing promotes a 'fear of other' - be it an ideological or political opponent abroad, illegal aliens or 'others' back home, whoever they might be. So I suppose just because they have set sights closer to home recently and are busy trying to divide and fear-monger within the US, they still have 'old faithful' in a powerful opponent abroad. Now they can't lay sights as easily on Russia (or even North Korea now, given Trumps constant cosying to their Kim Jong Un) I suppose China is the next logical one in line.
I don't know if it is still the case but you did also used to have a lot of Republican links to the arms industry (thinking back to Cheney/McDonald Douglas and the like) - fear of a resurgent China and them becoming increasingly belligerent around southern asia might help promote congressional spending. On the other side of the coin, China's own arms industry is growing rapidly, in the same way you'll probably get Chinese industrialists involved with arms trying to pump up any sort of potential conflict, to help secure extra investments and push the narrative towards Chinese expansionism.
|
|
|
Post by Least censored on the planet! on Jun 6, 2023 4:28:54 GMT -5
China supports some absolutely atrocious regimes in North Korea, Russia and Iran. Iran is bad but Saudi Arabia is worse and the US supports it...
|
|
|
Post by Disciple of Fate on Jun 6, 2023 6:08:41 GMT -5
China supports some absolutely atrocious regimes in North Korea, Russia and Iran. Iran is bad but Saudi Arabia is worse and the US supports it... Yes, but being cynical the US is the lesser of evils candidate, even with states like Israel and Saudi Arabia. The US is far far far from prefect, but where it wins out is that unlike China, the US at least (sometimes) tries to do better. Edit: to add, the US also has the EU and many others behind it as an 'ideological' camp, who try more than the US. China has no real following behind it that tries to do better either.
|
|
|
Post by Least censored on the planet! on Jun 6, 2023 7:36:45 GMT -5
China doesn't have any real following beside North Korea, no?
|
|