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Post by easye on Mar 9, 2023 10:22:47 GMT -5
I think we have finally seen a Hypersonic missile in action, something that I do not recall having happened in the past. Russia and China have claimed for sometime that they have had them. However, I think this maybe the first time we have seen them in action. Russia hits multiple cities across Ukraine, some with hypersonic missileswww.npr.org/2023/03/09/1162127060/russia-hits-multiple-cities-across-ukraine-some-with-hypersonic-missilesUkraine seems to think these Hypersonic missiles have been used as one-offs, but I do not recall them being mentioned before. Sounds like the US has a new "Missile Gap" to think about. |
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Post by Least censored on the planet! on Mar 9, 2023 10:53:39 GMT -5
What's hypersonic speed? Also isn't wasting very expensive, nuclear-capable long-range missile on civilian infrastructure for barely any gain completely stupid and a way to weaken yourself in case an actual nuclear war happen?
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Haighus
Ye Olde King of OT
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Post by Haighus on Mar 9, 2023 11:14:05 GMT -5
What's hypersonic speed? Also isn't wasting very expensive, nuclear-capable long-range missile on civilian infrastructure for barely any gain completely stupid and a way to weaken yourself in case an actual nuclear war happen? Generally taken to be above mach 5. Hypersonic missiles as a term typically refers to missiles with attack vectors more like very quick cruise missiles as opposed to ballistic missiles, which have been capable of hypersonic speeds for decades. To be honest, I suspect top-of-the-line NATO air defense can probably take these out. The big selling points are the short warning time (due to high speed at low altitude) and some ability to evade on approach which ballistic missiles typically lack. Evading at mach 5+ is difficult to track. However,the latest generation of NATO air defenses have overlapping radar to provide more early warning and probably will include space-based detection soon, offsetting the lack of warning. |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Mar 9, 2023 11:38:30 GMT -5
Hypersonic missiles have been a topic for years, but the question is how useful they would be compared to regular ICBMs. Russia and the US have so many that even stopping most would still leave the world a burning wreck, the risks are still too great. Also isn't wasting very expensive, nuclear-capable long-range missile on civilian infrastructure for barely any gain completely stupid and a way to weaken yourself in case an actual nuclear war happen? The reason is that Russia has depleted it's stocks, so they use whatever they have left, stupid or not, they need to do something to try and force a stalemate. |
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Post by easye on Mar 9, 2023 11:44:17 GMT -5
I think Hypersonic missiles have been a bigger deal in the realm of Naval warfare. The idea being that a barrage of Hypersonic missiles can checkmate a Carrier Battle Group's ability to project power.
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Post by Least censored on the planet! on Mar 9, 2023 11:49:21 GMT -5
The reason is that Russia has depleted it's stocks, so they use whatever they have left, stupid or not, they need to do something to try and force a stalemate. Basically throwing good money after bad money (is that a real expression or am I mistaken)? They already spent all their conventional capacities on a failed invasion so now they want to spend their nuclear capacities on a still failed invasion? Stupid. |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Mar 9, 2023 11:57:06 GMT -5
The reason is that Russia has depleted it's stocks, so they use whatever they have left, stupid or not, they need to do something to try and force a stalemate. Basically throwing good money after bad money (is that a real expression or am I mistaken)? They already spent all their conventional capacities on a failed invasion so now they want to spend their nuclear capacities on a still failed invasion? Stupid. I have heard the expression before. But basically the Russian nuclear arsenal doesn't rely on hypersonic missiles, as the available stock is likely very small. Submarine and silo based nuclear missiles are still being held in reserve and are likely not usable in Ukraine. If they have the conventional warheads to switch out the nuclear ones. It's not stupid for Putin at least, because he either forces some negotiated settlement with Ukraine or he most likely ends up deposed and/or dead when Russia loses. |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Mar 9, 2023 11:58:46 GMT -5
I think Hypersonic missiles have been a bigger deal in the realm of Naval warfare. The idea being that a barrage of Hypersonic missiles can checkmate a Carrier Battle Group's ability to project power. True, this is what China is heavily investing in, because a conflict with conventional hypersonic missiles is more likely than nuclear armageddon. |
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Haighus
Ye Olde King of OT
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Post by Haighus on Mar 9, 2023 12:16:35 GMT -5
I think Hypersonic missiles have been a bigger deal in the realm of Naval warfare. The idea being that a barrage of Hypersonic missiles can checkmate a Carrier Battle Group's ability to project power. For conventional warheads yes- naval vessels are high enough value to make the missiles worth it. I am still unconvinced that the Russian weapons have sufficient capability to defeat the top-of-the-line NATO systems like the Type 45 or Ticonderoga class, especially if there is good AWACS cover to provide radar cover over the horizon from the naval vessels to extend the early warning. Existing point defense systems are probably still effective, although these are always a last resort for air defense. Having said that, it potentially doesn't take many missiles slipping through to do the job. Who knows about the Chinese weapons. I don't think any are in service yet? Hypersonic weapons are not a new concept though, the big players have been looking into them for decades. Countermeasures will appear pretty soon and turn them into another tool in the box rather than the bogeyman they are currently presented as. |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Mar 9, 2023 12:30:36 GMT -5
The problem is that these weapons might be entering service in China, but are obviously untested. War will be the only true test for weapons that work great in theory.
What Chinese general is going to risk their head to give a practical test to a multi-billion dollar prestige project, risking to demonstrate that current countermeasures are effective?
Ukraine is hardly the high-tech and trained opponent these missiles are designed for.
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Haighus
Ye Olde King of OT
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Post by Haighus on Mar 9, 2023 12:48:09 GMT -5
The problem is that these weapons might be entering service in China, but are obviously untested. War will be the only true test for weapons that work great in theory. What Chinese general is going to risk their head to give a practical test to a multi-billion dollar prestige project, risking to demonstrate that current countermeasures are effective? Ukraine is hardly the high-tech and trained opponent these missiles are designed for. Exactly. Ukraine is nowhere near as capable as a nation like the US in missile air defense. For example, a lot of the cruise missiles they shot down were with MANPADSs using radar data from bigger installations. Impressive ingenuity, but clearly a desperate measure to use such short-ranged close defence weapons for strategic air defense. |
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Post by easye on May 9, 2023 10:42:14 GMT -5
Ukraine says its newly fielded U.S. Patriot system downed a Russian hypersonic missilewww.npr.org/2023/05/06/1174505616/ukraine-patriot-defense-russian-hypersonic-missile-kinzhalSo, the much vaunted Hypersonic Missile may not be all they are cracked up to be? Granted, this was 1. It is unclear how many were launched or if this was just a single lone missile attack. It is unclear how a saturation attack of Hypersonic missiles would fare against the Patriot or similar anti-missile missiles.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on May 9, 2023 10:56:04 GMT -5
Worth noting that those are amongst the 'slowest' of hypersonic missiles, so the question is where the line lies in what is achievable in shooting them down in general.
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skyth
OT Cowboy
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Post by skyth on May 9, 2023 12:19:20 GMT -5
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