History...eh, things!

[mdgv2]

Also also also?

Time Team. If you’ve seen my associated wibblings on Dakka, they’re back. And a whole bunch of classic episodes are up on YouTube, free to see with your peepers. Unless they’re region locked. Which they may be. I dunno, I’ve only seen them whilst in the UK.

If you’re scratching your bonce wondering what Time Team is? It’s near televisual perfection. A show about digs at archaeological sites, which simplifies the art without dumbing it down. Sir Tony Robinson is our host, and does a bang up job as the audience proxy, asking salient questions of the experts in the field(s), who respond in plain English terms. Nothing is sensationalised either.

It’s wonderful. And it’s addictive. Here’s a link for you.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFzqDn2lOz8

[Haighus]

arkeonews.net/a-shipboard-14th-century-cannon-found-off-the-swedish-coast-may-be-the-oldest-in-europe/

This is quite exciting if you have an interest in early artillery. It is interesting that this cannon appears to be the earliest known example of a couple of features thought to arise later.

My thoughts, based on the poor-quality metallurgy of this example, is that guns were probably more common in this era than previously thought, but that many, even most were broken during use and therefore very few survive intact. The fundamental problem with tools being that they are made to be used and tend to get broken and recycled eventually.

[easye]

As a native son of the state of Minnesota, we have a proud tradition of fake viking artifacts!

The Surprisingly Durable American Tradition of Forging Viking Artifacts

slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/11/vikings-artifact-forgeries-oklahoma-history.html?pay=1699976109145&support_journalism=please

There are a variety of clues which may suggest that Vikings penetrated further south and west into North America than (as has been confirmed) Newfoundland. Some of these are faint possibilities, such as an expedition which may have lain behind the Kensington Runestone, which was discovered in Minnesota in 1898. While highly skeptical regarding this artifact, we may keep open to the very slight possibility of its authenticity. This is even more true regarding the Yarmouth Stone and the Narragansett Runestone, discovered in Nova Scotia and Rhode Island in 1812 and 1984, respectively. Their locations make them more likely to be authentic than Kensington, although they are not without their problems, some of which are serious. When it comes to the Maine Penny, said to have been discovered in Maine in 1957, we are on much surer ground, even if its routeway to its eventual find-spot was probably via Native American trade networks rather than any direct Norse presence at the site.

The Kensington Runestone is a sham too.

[easye]

www.npr.org/2024/01/24/1226575715/archaeologists-roman-empire-dodecahedron-england

Amateur archaeologists uncover a mysterious ancient Roman artifact in England

A group of amateur archaeologists in England were on their second to last day of excavation last June when they discovered a find of a lifetime — a mysterious ancient artifact called a dodecahedron at a possible Roman site.

A dodecahedron is a circular copper alloy object between the size of a golf ball and a grapefruit characterized by its 12-sided form, with various holes and knobs.

But its function remains unclear. Even though more than 100 have been found across Europe, the Norton Disney History and Archaeology Group — the organization behind the latest find — describes the dodecahedron as one of "archaeology's great enigmas."

That's is largely because there are no known visual or written descriptions of dodecahedra in Roman literature, says the group's website.

According to Lorena Hitchens, a doctoral student in the U.K. studying all the Roman dodecahedra of Europe, there are many unproven theories about the dodecahedron's use — as a gauge, a rangefinder, a candlestick, a die for gambling or gaming, or knitting gloves, for example. She says that none of these theories are supported by evidence.

[easye]

Also in today's news.....

www.cnn.com/2024/01/24/style/serbia-roman-triumphal-arch/index.html

Remains of ancient Roman triumphal arch unearthed in Serbia

Kostolac, Serbia
Reuters
—
Braving bitter cold and wind, archaeologists in Serbia surveyed the site of an ancient Roman triumphal arch, one of only a handful in the Balkans, that dates back to the third century.

The triumphal arch was discovered in December at the site of Viminacium, a Roman city near the town of Kostolac, 70 kilometers (45 miles) east of Belgrade.

Miomir Korac, the leading archaeologist, said the discovery was made during excavation of the main street of Viminacium, the capital of the Roman province of Moesia.

“This is the first such triumphal arch in this area… It can be dated to the first decades of the third century AD,” Korac told Reuters on Monday.

[easye]

www.npr.org/2024/02/22/1232694592/blinkerwall-stone-age-megastructure-hunting-underwater-baltic-sea

Scientists scanning the seafloor discover a long-lost Stone Age 'megastructure'

They didn't know it at the time, but not quite 70 feet below the surface, they'd stumbled upon a stone wall more than half a mile long that dated back to the Stone Age — one of the oldest such megastructures on the planet. In research published in PNAS, Geersen and his colleagues say this piece of ancient hunting architecture may have been used to corral and hunt reindeer, adding a level of sophistication to the prehistoric hunter-gatherers who lived 10,000 to 11,000 years ago.

[Haighus]

Jun 2, 2023 14:46:59 GMT -5 nfe said:

Catch all thread for anything about history, I guess, but specifically started for this:

ondemand.spectrum.net/tv/science-channel/24698962/ancient-armageddon/

I said a while back on ETC that a couple friends of mine were filming for a show that was being made essentially about Eric Cline's 1177BC, a book about the societal collapses in the Eastern Mediterranean at the end of the Bronze Age, and a couple folks asked me to alert them when it was being broadcast, so here we are.

I've not seen it and don't know of it will be any good (and I find the title alarming, as I'm sure does at least one of the aforementioned friends), but maybe it's good!

EDIT2: WRONG SHOW. Im talking about Ancient Apocalypse below... What is with these names?

Oh, I don't think anyone followed up on this here but essentially...

The show is all conspiracy theory garbage that generally misrepresented the experts interviewed for it and paints them in a very unflattering light. The main presenter, a quack called Graham Hancock, does the whole "I am shunned by the exclusionary establishment who don't like new ideas" schtick when actually it is just because he doesn't have any evidence for his claims.

Tl;dw: he reckons there was a single, advanced world-wide global culture that left no material remains and collapsed during the Younger Dryad event, with all the actual early civilisations being shellshocked survivors. This is based on some cherrypicked, vaguely similar themes found in disconnected cultures (and in one case a geological feature he thinks is manmade...) and unsupported assertions that various settlements and monuments are actually way older than the oldest currently-found evidence. These unevidenced dates all mysteriously correspond to the Younger Dryad event to support his theory and he essentially pulled out of his arse.

Very disappointing show, Ancient Aliens level of shit. It is a shame too because it went to some genuinely interesting, lesser-known archaelogical sites that deserve proper documentaries about them.

Edit: I will say the show is well crafted. It starts gentle, with stuff that generally has evidence or is a plausible hypothesis with little in the way of outlandish claims. But over time becomes increasingly detached from reality in crafting this narrative of a global megaculture. I can see how this would convince people taking it at face value or not paying too much attention to the logical jumps.

[A Town Called Malus]

Feb 22, 2024 11:36:52 GMT -5 Haighus said:

Jun 2, 2023 14:46:59 GMT -5 nfe said:

Catch all thread for anything about history, I guess, but specifically started for this:

ondemand.spectrum.net/tv/science-channel/24698962/ancient-armageddon/

I said a while back on ETC that a couple friends of mine were filming for a show that was being made essentially about Eric Cline's 1177BC, a book about the societal collapses in the Eastern Mediterranean at the end of the Bronze Age, and a couple folks asked me to alert them when it was being broadcast, so here we are.

I've not seen it and don't know of it will be any good (and I find the title alarming, as I'm sure does at least one of the aforementioned friends), but maybe it's good!

Oh, I don't think anyone followed up on this here but essentially...

The show is all conspiracy theory garbage that generally misrepresented the experts interviewed for it and paints them in a very unflattering light. The main presenter, a quack called Graham Hancock, does the whole "I am shunned by the exclusionary establishment who don't like new ideas" schtick when actually it is just because he doesn't have any evidence for his claims.

Tl;dw: he reckons there was a single, advanced world-wide global culture that left no material remains and collapsed during the Younger Dryad event, with all the actual early civilisations being shellshocked survivors. This is based on some cherrypicked, vaguely similar themes found in disconnected cultures (and in one case a geological feature he thinks is manmade...) and unsupported assertions that various settlements and monuments are actually way older than the oldest currently-found evidence. These unevidenced dates all mysteriously correspond to the Younger Dryad event to support his theory and he essentially pulled out of his arse.

Very disappointing show, Ancient Aliens level of shit. It is a shame too because it went to some genuinely interesting, lesser-known archaelogical sites that deserve proper documentaries about them.

Edit: I will say the show is well crafted. It starts gentle, with stuff that generally has evidence or is a plausible hypothesis with little in the way of outlandish claims. But over time becomes increasingly detached from reality in crafting this narrative of a global megaculture. I can see how this would convince people taking it at face value or not paying too much attention to the logical jumps.

Ah, they pulled one of those bait and switches on them.

Dan Olson of Folding Ideas has a good video about how a load of geocentrists did a similar thing to a bunch of physicists. They even got Kate Mulgrew, of Mrs. Columbo fame, to narrate it.

[bobtheinquisitor]

On that bit of Stone Age wall… what is the cut off point between structure and megastructure?

[Haighus]

Feb 22, 2024 13:34:43 GMT -5 A Town Called Malus said:

Feb 22, 2024 11:36:52 GMT -5 Haighus said:

Oh, I don't think anyone followed up on this here but essentially...

The show is all conspiracy theory garbage that generally misrepresented the experts interviewed for it and paints them in a very unflattering light. The main presenter, a quack called Graham Hancock, does the whole "I am shunned by the exclusionary establishment who don't like new ideas" schtick when actually it is just because he doesn't have any evidence for his claims.

Tl;dw: he reckons there was a single, advanced world-wide global culture that left no material remains and collapsed during the Younger Dryad event, with all the actual early civilisations being shellshocked survivors. This is based on some cherrypicked, vaguely similar themes found in disconnected cultures (and in one case a geological feature he thinks is manmade...) and unsupported assertions that various settlements and monuments are actually way older than the oldest currently-found evidence. These unevidenced dates all mysteriously correspond to the Younger Dryad event to support his theory and he essentially pulled out of his arse.

Very disappointing show, Ancient Aliens level of shit. It is a shame too because it went to some genuinely interesting, lesser-known archaelogical sites that deserve proper documentaries about them.

Edit: I will say the show is well crafted. It starts gentle, with stuff that generally has evidence or is a plausible hypothesis with little in the way of outlandish claims. But over time becomes increasingly detached from reality in crafting this narrative of a global megaculture. I can see how this would convince people taking it at face value or not paying too much attention to the logical jumps.

Ah, they pulled one of those bait and switches on them.

Dan Olson of Folding Ideas has a good video about how a load of geocentrists did a similar thing to a bunch of physicists. They even got Kate Mulgrew, of Mrs. Columbo fame, to narrate it.

Er... I mixed up the shows. My spiel was for Ancient Apocalypse, a different but very similarly-named show. I've edited above.

[Haighus]

Feb 22, 2024 13:40:11 GMT -5 bobtheinquisitor said:

On that bit of Stone Age wall… what is the cut off point between structure and megastructure?

Good question, because half a mile by itself doesn't mean a wall is that big. There is a substantial difference between a half mile segment of dry stone wall for keeping sheep vs a half mile segment of crenellated stone fortification wall, for example.

I'd guess this wall must be quite tall to prevent deer jumping it? They are agile critters.

[mdgv2]

Could all be relative, based on current understanding of the evolution of structure building.

For instance, Hunter Gatherers assembling a half mile drystone wall may be considered a greater achievement than someone building a brick and mortar wall of the same dimensions in the 19th Century?

[nfe]

For what it's worth, I don't recall having ever read any ancient construction being described as a 'megastructure'' in any academic context. I only know it from sci-fi and pseudoachaeology. I don't think it's well-defined?

[easye]

This is really exciting to me.

Buried by the Ash of Vesuvius, These Scrolls Are Being Read for the First Time in Millennia

www.smithsonianmag.com/history/buried-ash-vesuvius-scrolls-are-being-read-new-xray-technique-180969358/

The facility, called Diamond Light Source, is one of the most powerful and sophisticated X-ray facilities in the world, used to probe everything from viruses to jet engines. On this summer afternoon, though, its epic beam will focus on a tiny crumb of papyrus that has already survived one of the most destructive forces on the planet—and 2,000 years of history. It comes from a scroll found in Herculaneum, an ancient Roman resort on the Bay of Naples, Italy, that was buried by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in A.D. 79. In the 18th century, workmen employed by King Charles III of Spain, then in charge of much of southern Italy, discovered the remains of a magnificent villa, thought to have belonged to Lucius Calpurnius Piso Caesoninus (known as Piso), a wealthy statesman and the father-in-law of Julius Caesar. The luxurious residence had elaborate gardens surrounded by colonnaded walkways and was filled with beautiful mosaics, frescoes and sculptures. And, in what was to become one of the most frustrating archaeological discoveries ever, the workmen also found approximately 2,000 papyrus scrolls.

Perhaps we can fill in some our holes with sources using these!

[mdgv2]

Pants wettingly exciting stuff!