Knives (and knife control?)

[Hordini]

As the members here come from a wide variety of backgrounds, I'm interested in all of your thoughts on this.

Places like the UK seem to have very strict knife laws. Other countries, even in Europe, vary widely in their knife regulations, some being more, less, or similarly strict as the UK. In the US, knife regulations are generally less restrictive than in countries like the UK, but laws vary extremely widely across states and some jurisdictions are still quite restrictive. In some states there are even significant variances in different cities, towns, counties, and rural areas, which can be extremely problematic for someone traveling while also trying to follow the law.

Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, published a tweet in 2018 that said "No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife. Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law." I realize that this was in response to violent crime involving knives in London, and he included a link to London's Violence Reduction Unit in the tweet, but to me saying something like "there is never a reason to carry a knife" seems pretty unreasonable. There are plenty of practical reasons to carry knives that don't have anything to do with crime (or even self-defense), and my understanding is that UK law even allows for this, although what constitutes a "good reason" appears to have some gray area and appears at least on some level to be up to the interpretation of the individual police officer (prior to arrest) and then finally up to the interpretation of the court (prior to being found guilty or innocent).

Do many people (either you, or people you interact with) agree with Sadiq Khan on this or see things similarly? Do you think knife regulations should be increased, decreased, or stay the same? Do any of you carry knives regularly or occasionally? If you don't, would you ever consider carrying one, or do you think it's something that is dangerous and shouldn't be done (or something else)? Do you view knives primarily as tools or weapons (or both, or something else)? What are your thoughts on the topic generally?

[skyth]

In the US, it really feels like bladed weapons are more heavily regulated than firearms are...To the point where significantly less lethal/dangerous bladed weapons (Throwing Stars, for instance) are illegal places where normal firearms aren't.


www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/22410/#:~:text=1.-,Are%20shurikens%20or%20ninja%20stars%20illegal%20in%20California%3F,a%20shuriken%20or%20ninja%20star.

Yes. Penal Code 22410 is the California statute that makes it a crime for a person to make, import, sell, give, or possess a shuriken or ninja star.1



A “shuriken” is a metal object in the form of a star (or another similar geometric shape) with projecting blades or points.2



Please note that throwing stars are also prohibited under California Penal Code 16590, or California’s statute on generally prohibited weapons.3

Would figure they would be just as protected by the 2nd amendment as firearms...

[bobtheinquisitor]

I have never run into this. And I once got caught sneaking a 6-inch blade into the Oakland court house. (I forgot I had it on me.). The security guy just told me to leave it outside, so I hid it in a planter box and came back in.

Most of the people I know who work in retail or in warehouses carry knives or box cutters at all times. My wife and I always have Swiss Army knives for utility reasons. When we go hiking we bring bigger knives, again for utility rather than defense.

I’ve carried around swords in public and never had anyone stop me. In America, I think they’re seen more as a novelty than a deadly weapon..

[nfe]

I think Khan was talking about specifically urban contexts, and that the implication is carry as a distinct category from transporting - and certainly the chances of anyone ending up being prosecuted because they were taking a knife home from a shop, going to work as a chef, heading off on a camping trip etc are extraordinarily slim (unless they're black, because it's the Met, obviously).

In which case, I think he's probably right.

[crispy78]

Am British. Never carry a knife, don't think I even own such a knife. I have cooking knives and hobby knives, and a Stanley knife in my toolbox. That's about it. I'm kind of in the same boat as Khan - don't see any reason for carrying a knife.

Bear in mind the UK basically has no remote wilderness in the same manner as the US. There are very few places where you're more than a few miles away from a road, if not some sort of settlement. We just don't have the scope to be as outdoorsy as you guys.

[herzlos]

There's virtually no reason to carry a blade in any kind of UK urban environment; there's just nothing to do with them. The only contexts I can think of where even a pen knife is needed is if you're fishing or camping, and both are done well away from busy places. I've always had pen knifes (since I was maybe 10) but whilst I have 1 at my desk at home and 1 in my mountain biking bag, there's just no need to have one on my person.

The law does allow for a folding blade up to 3" in length, I think, but I'm not sure how well that'd hold up given how creative people can be when up to no good. The law prohibits anything that could be used as an offensive weapon without a good justification. So a tradesman having a box cutter in his tool bag whilst going to a job is fine, but a having a hammer in a carrier bag outside McDonalds at 1am on a Saturday night isn't.


But generally no-one has a problem with it and no-one feels their freedoms are being infringed on because we prefer the freedom to not be stabbed over the freedom to spontaneously whittle some wood. We don't have the same individualist culture that the US does.

[easye]

Blades and Knives are seen as tools in the US. Yet, many knives are heavily regulated. With the push to open up firearm laws, many of these "Knife" related laws have also been impacted.

For a long time, "butterfly" knives were illegal in my area. Now they aren't anymore.

I am not really sure how I feel about the loosening restrictions on knives.

[redchimera]

Jan 9, 2024 11:00:21 GMT -5 easye said:

Blades and Knives are seen as tools in the US. Yet, many knives are heavily regulated. With the push to open up firearm laws, many of these "Knife" related laws have also been impacted.

For a long time, "butterfly" knives were illegal in my area. Now they aren't anymore.

I am not really sure how I feel about the loosening restrictions on knives.

Well, a butterfly knife is designed as a weapon. There's only one reason to carry one. So if you're looking for a feeling, I suggest 'horrified'.

[herzlos]

A largish blade that's safe to carry but can be opened one handed could be pretty useful for lots of outdoorsy trades. But then a butterfly knife is clearly a stabbing blade and not a utility blade, and there's a good reason they are illegal in most places.

[mdgv2]

A lot of it is contextual.

A Chef may well travel with their knives, especially if they do their job at events. I’ve carried a bread knife through central London, as I needed it for cake at work. I’ve walked home through town with new kitchen knives in my bag. All of those could be used to harm another human being, and their intended purpose isn’t necessarily a defence.

But idiots carrying “for self protecshun” need to just stop it. Likewise, I can’t see a great need for crap like “Zombie” knives to remain freely on sale, or Machetes, as there are better, more specialised tools for keen gardeners and horticulturalists.

Of course, the real cause behind rising knife crime in the UK is Government cutbacks on law enforcements and intervention spending. Outreach programmes are gone. Youth programmes are gone. Community relations are gone. In short, all the “maybe try to stop kids falling into criminality” measures were removed, in the name of the austerity ideology. Organised crime just can’t be challenged and stopped as it once was. And stupid, idiot kids are stupid idiot kids, and prone to making stupid, idiotic decisions. Like carrying a knife. Even if they’re just plastic gangsters, who’s normal criminality is no more than a bit of puff and pretending they’re in the Crips? Once someone is carrying a knife, a pretty basic scuffle can quickly escalate into something far worse.

[easye]

Most restrictions I have seen only care about how the blade is deployed and the length of the blade. The "type" or "style" of knife is not relevant.

For example, a blade over 6 inches is a blade over 6 inches.

[herzlos]

True, I don't think many regulations go into much detail on what the blade itself looks like beyond either total length or blade length.

The distinction would largely only be useful when trying to provide intent/context to a police officer or judge. Something like a wire stripping knife, demolition knife (essentially a chisel with an edge on the end and one side), or even a fishing knife may all be reasonable enough for someone to have with them because they serve a valid utility, but one of those twisted plunge daggers wouldn't because it's only use is creating an untreatable puncture wound.

[herzlos]

Jan 10, 2024 6:54:47 GMT -5 mdgv2 said:

But idiots carrying “for self protecshun” need to just stop it. Likewise, I can’t see a great need for crap like “Zombie” knives to remain freely on sale, or Machetes, as there are better, more specialised tools for keen gardeners and horticulturalists.

Apparently zombie knives and machetes have been banned since 2016 - www.gov.uk/government/news/government-bans-machetes-and-zombie-knives - though some are still sold via misnaming them.

The knife for protection thing is also a terrible idea, because apparently you're about 3 times more likely to get hurt if you carry a knife - firstaidforlife.org.uk/knife-crime-stabbing/ - because you'll more than likely escalate any situation, and there's the risk of accidentally hurting yourself too.

I also agree entirely on austerity making crime worse - there's a definite correlation between closing youth activities and youth crime, ditto for stuff like community policing, mental health services and so on. It's painfully obvious to everyone except those that don't want to see it.

[mdgv2]

I’d be interested in reading reports on how carrying a knife affects your approach to risk.

Me? I hate fighting, so I just…avoid fighty situations. Granted at 43 years of age and 6’2” that’s a halluva lot easier for me than spotty little Herberts. But I can’t help but think that if someone is carrying a knife, they might have false confidence, that perhaps they can mouth off more, because they’ve got their backup. Which may mean they’re just getting involved in more fights, whether or not the blade comes into it.

[herzlos]

It must do. It's also likely to give them an increased sense of confidence whilst being more aware of perceived threats (in the same way carrying a gun does). Those threats may not actually be valid but that won't stop them acting on it.

So you're probably more likely to get into a messy situation and more likely to make it worse. The obvious example is that if A pulls a knife on B, B can back down, run away, hand over money or whatever, but if B also pulls a knife then neither side can back down and A may now be forced to act in self defense because whilst they hadn't planned on actually using the knife, they don't know if B will.