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Post by Haighus on Feb 29, 2024 8:29:01 GMT -5
I thought we had this thread already but I couldn't find it. Maybe it got nuked on ETC. Anyway, inquiry finds several police forces should never have hired Wayne Couzens, convicted murderer and rapist who used his police powers in the commission of said crimes. He is serviving a life sentence. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/29/met-police-should-never-have-employed-wayne-couzens-report-findsFor some reason, the police forces in question were not concerned by serial sexual offenses and even promoted this man to a firearms officer (which requires extra vetting in the UK). Deeply worrying. As the report says: Doesn't that make you feel safe...? How does the expression about bad apples go again? |
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Post by crispy78 on Feb 29, 2024 9:04:44 GMT -5
Yeah, I've often seen people talk about an obvious wrong-un in an organisation as 'just being one bad apple'. Seems like that idiom is not well understood these days!
I'm probably fortunate in that I've never had to directly rely on the police for assistance. To me they are largely just something I need to watch out for if I feel like driving a bit quicker...
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mdgv2
Ye Olde King of OT
Posts: 927
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Post by mdgv2 on Feb 29, 2024 9:20:48 GMT -5
The Met in particular is starting to feel indelibly tainted.
Racism, sexism, sex cases, murderers. Those are stains you can’t get out by just promising to Do Better. This may be a Root and Stem solution, but fuck knows how you do that. Maybe drafting in senior Rozzers from other places in the country?
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Post by pacific on Feb 29, 2024 9:44:55 GMT -5
Apparently there is also an internal inquest going on within the nuclear industry as he was passed off for nuclear constabulary. Apparently its one of the highest levels of vetting possible (these are effectively guys with assault rifles that are designed to respond to acts of terror at nuclear power stations) and yet he passed through that - so there are obviously some glaring omissions.
On a general note, I've also heard now that forces are taking shortcuts with their recruitment, attempting to get their numbers back up after the Tories slashed 20,000 from overall numbers (forces have realised that effective policing is not possible with the reduced numbers) and so reportedly some 'bad eggs' are coming in as part of the recruitment drives.
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Post by Haighus on Feb 29, 2024 10:47:30 GMT -5
Apparently there is also an internal inquest going on within the nuclear industry as he was passed off for nuclear constabulary. Apparently its one of the highest levels of vetting possible (these are effectively guys with assault rifles that are designed to respond to acts of terror at nuclear power stations) and yet he passed through that - so there are obviously some glaring omissions. On a general note, I've also heard now that forces are taking shortcuts with their recruitment, attempting to get their numbers back up after the Tories slashed 20,000 from overall numbers (forces have realised that effective policing is not possible with the reduced numbers) and so reportedly some 'bad eggs' are coming in as part of the recruitment drives. Bloody hell... |
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Post by Haighus on Feb 29, 2024 10:53:25 GMT -5
The Met in particular is starting to feel indelibly tainted. Racism, sexism, sex cases, murderers. Those are stains you can’t get out by just promising to Do Better. This may be a Root and Stem solution, but fuck knows how you do that. Maybe drafting in senior Rozzers from other places in the country? Given 3 different police forces are implicated in this one case, I think it goes far beyond the Met. It isn't hard to find examples of systemic issues with other police forces too. I don't think a lot has changed since Hilsborough or The Battle of Orgreave, except everyone carries a camera now. I don't think any actual rebuilding of the police force should be lead by any kind of copper. The whole relationship of "policing by consent" has to be built up from the ground again. |
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Post by Peregrine on Feb 29, 2024 15:27:00 GMT -5
Why would they be? Cops have extremely high rates of domestic violence, rape, etc, a record of sex offenses is just proof that he meets the qualifications to join the gang. If anything they were probably glad to find a candidate who would look the other way when, say, a suspect in custody "consented" to sex with the cops. Given 3 different police forces are implicated in this one case, I think it goes far beyond the Met. Yep. The A in ACAB is there for a reason and the solution is to abolish the police entirely. |
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Post by herzlos on Feb 29, 2024 18:44:53 GMT -5
I'm not sure if the domestic violence stat is the same for police around the globe as it is for the US since they usually have higher standards and training. That said, this case proves that the vetting process and internal investigations of complaints didn't matter since he was still given roles he wasn't eligible for.
The police for (and the MET in particular) needs a ground-up overhaul led by some external group somehow, but I don't know if the political will to achieve it is there.
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Post by Peregrine on Feb 29, 2024 19:26:52 GMT -5
I'm not sure if the domestic violence stat is the same for police around the globe as it is for the US since they usually have higher standards and training. That said, this case proves that the vetting process and internal investigations of complaints didn't matter since he was still given roles he wasn't eligible for.
The second sentence is why I doubt the first is true. The cops here pulled the same old "we investigated ourselves and found nothing wrong" abuse as any US police gang and a brief search for UK information turns up plenty of accusations of domestic violence and sex offenses by cops along with the same failures by gang leadership to take any actions against their fellow thugs.
And yeah, it's unfortunate that there's no desire to overthrow the establishment and abolish the police. They're too useful to the people in power and the UK, like the US, doesn't seem to have any real interest yet in destroying the system. Although in your case I suppose you'd have to do something about restoring individual self defense rights before people would be willing to give up the (mostly imaginary) safety offered by the cops. It's a lot easier to accept that cops are useless at best when you have the ability to defend yourself in their absence.
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Post by Haighus on Mar 1, 2024 3:36:39 GMT -5
I'm not sure if the domestic violence stat is the same for police around the globe as it is for the US since they usually have higher standards and training. That said, this case proves that the vetting process and internal investigations of complaints didn't matter since he was still given roles he wasn't eligible for.
The second sentence is why I doubt the first is true. The cops here pulled the same old "we investigated ourselves and found nothing wrong" abuse as any US police gang and a brief search for UK information turns up plenty of accusations of domestic violence and sex offenses by cops along with the same failures by gang leadership to take any actions against their fellow thugs.
And yeah, it's unfortunate that there's no desire to overthrow the establishment and abolish the police. They're too useful to the people in power and the UK, like the US, doesn't seem to have any real interest yet in destroying the system. Although in your case I suppose you'd have to do something about restoring individual self defense rights before people would be willing to give up the (mostly imaginary) safety offered by the cops. It's a lot easier to accept that cops are useless at best when you have the ability to defend yourself in their absence.
I think it is worth highlighting again that the US is uniquely violent amongst its peers in the developed world. It is markedly more violent than the UK, which is still one of the more violent places in the developed world. So self defense is much less of a consideration in general for most of us outside the US. Whilst I do think our police force is deeply flawed, probably fatally so even in concept let alone execution, it is nowhere near as rotten as policing in the US. For example, there was no widespread doubt that Couzens would be convicted of murdering Sarah Everard in the same way it came as a genuine surprise that Chauvin was convicted for murdering Floyd despite it being on camera. There is also much less veneration of coppers and much more accountability by the public for the police here*. Coppers protect their own, but the public doesn't particularly join in on that in the same way large swathes of the US does. In addition, UK police officers actually do have a duty to protect the public, even at the cost of personal injury or death. That is taken seriously, and coppers do die in the line of duty protecting people. It is rare, because deadly violence is rare. Meanwhile, the US has legally ruled that the police neither has to protect nor serve... Further to this is that most coppers are not armed, so they are generally less threatening. A bad interaction with the UK police is much, much less likely to result in death or severe injury. It is normal to ask a copper on patrol for advice in a way that tends to get at least verbal abuse in the US. It generally isn't playing with fire to ask the police to track down a relative having a mental crisis (with the caveat that this would be more worrying if said relative is a racialised minority). Uk coppers also cannot legally rob you, they don't get funding from speeding tickets etc. A lot of the financial incentives for poor behaviour are absent. Police unions are also nowhere near as strong. All of this is to say that our police are bad for a great number of reasons**, but they are less violent, have markedly less legal and public protections if they misbehave, and less legal incentives to behave badly in the first place. *By this I mean for actual police officers rather than the institutions. The institutions are commonly accepted when they clearly shouldn't be. The UK is a very institional country. **Institutionally racist, homophobic, sexist, arguably classist, and exist primarily to protect the capitalist status quo. |
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Post by crispy78 on Mar 1, 2024 4:28:36 GMT -5
I think it is worth highlighting again that the US is uniquely violent amongst its peers in the developed world. It is markedly more violent than the UK, which is still one of the more violent places in the developed world. So self defense is much less of a consideration in general for most of us outside the US. To follow up on this: I am a white British middle-class man in my mid 40s. I live in a nice, affluent area and, OK, have probably had a more than averagely sheltered life. But I can think of one, literally only one time, when I felt physically threatened and that I was going to be involved in a fight. I was probably mid 20s, and a big group of us had met up in a pub in London, not far from Leicester Square. All that happened was a drunk thug at the bar tried to chat up my then-fiancee (now wife!) while I had nipped to the loo. He followed us back to our table and was persistently trying to talk to my fiancee, who I feel I should say was making it clear she wasn't interested and didn't want to talk to him. Another guy from our group stood up with me to back me up, drunk thug was inviting me to step outside with him. Fortunately the bouncers clocked what was going on and escorted him out before anything actually happened. Honestly, the UK is pretty safe... |
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Post by redchimera on Mar 1, 2024 6:15:31 GMT -5
I think it is worth highlighting again that the US is uniquely violent amongst its peers in the developed world. It is markedly more violent than the UK, which is still one of the more violent places in the developed world. So self defense is much less of a consideration in general for most of us outside the US. To follow up on this: I am a white British middle-class man in my mid 40s. I live in a nice, affluent area and, OK, have probably had a more than averagely sheltered life. But I can think of one, literally only one time, when I felt physically threatened and that I was going to be involved in a fight. I was probably mid 20s, and a big group of us had met up in a pub in London, not far from Leicester Square. All that happened was a drunk thug at the bar tried to chat up my then-fiancee (now wife!) while I had nipped to the loo. He followed us back to our table and was persistently trying to talk to my fiancee, who I feel I should say was making it clear she wasn't interested and didn't want to talk to him. Another guy from our group stood up with me to back me up, drunk thug was inviting me to step outside with him. Fortunately the bouncers clocked what was going on and escorted him out before anything actually happened. Honestly, the UK is pretty safe... Absolutely. If someone get killed by gunfire (by anyone) it makes it onto the national news. The UK is a very different country from the USA. MAnd my own interactions with the police have been absolutely fine, either when I've called them (to deal with a shoplifter, report suspicious activity) or when I've been caught speeding (I certainly don't feel I'm risking my life when getting my insurance documents out of the glove box). They're not even intimidating - just businesslike. I'll certainly agree though, that the police as a whole (certainly the Met) need a bottom up overall, a near witch hunt style going over of all officers and governance procedures. Perhaps, if the Tories hadn't gutted the police force, management wouldn't have been tempted to turn a blind eye to unsuitable officers/applicants just to keep manpower levels up. |
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Post by Peregrine on Mar 1, 2024 20:45:29 GMT -5
(with the caveat that this would be more worrying if said relative is a racialised minority). ... **Institutionally racist, homophobic, sexist, arguably classist, and exist primarily to protect the capitalist status quo.
And I think this is the key point. UK police are less awful than US police but that bar is under the floor. Pretty much any functioning country will do better than a police system that would be more at home in a corrupt dictatorship or failed state. But ACAB clearly includes UK cops and when you talk about an organization that is institutionally flawed the solution is to abolish it. Half measures like appointing "external" review that is still part of the overall government and capitalist system is unlikely to produce anything more than superficial changes and burying the current scandal until the next one happens.
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Post by Peregrine on Mar 1, 2024 20:51:41 GMT -5
To follow up on this: I am a white British middle-class man in my mid 40s. I live in a nice, affluent area and, OK, have probably had a more than averagely sheltered life.
But how would you feel if that wasn't the case? If you didn't have the money to live in a nice area, or if you were a visible minority that might be targeted by the police and/or bigoted citizens? Would you still feel that the police are on your side, or would it feel more like Haighus' comment about "except if you're a minority"? Would you still be confident that there's no serious threat of violence from your neighbors if you were a black trans woman living in a rough neighborhood, especially if you had to be out late at night?
(And for the record, the only time I've been the victim of a crime was a theft from my house while I wasn't home. But I still feel much safer knowing that if anyone breaks in while I'm home the only thing I need the cops for is to come remove the corpse.)
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Post by redchimera on Mar 2, 2024 3:28:29 GMT -5
Well that’s the kind of approach that gets people you drank too much and tried to use their keys to get into the house next door, or black children who just knock killed. And all this talk of abolishing the police sounds cool an’ all, in a simplistic way, but it’s replacement would be so similar, use the same infrastructure and resources, that a ‘deep clean’ is more realistic than throwing it all out and starting again.
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