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Post by herzlos on Mar 6, 2024 3:26:30 GMT -5
Second, it's often a lack of escalation that provokes conflict. If you know every home has an armed owner willing and able to shoot you the moment you kick open the door are you going to risk robbing a house?
Sure, but if you assume everyone is armed the logical response in a lot of cases is to shoot first. You're causing further escalation.
I thought the whole "an armed society is a polite society" myth had long been busted.
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dabbler
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Post by dabbler on Mar 6, 2024 3:58:32 GMT -5
Second, it's often a lack of escalation that provokes conflict. If you know every home has an armed owner willing and able to shoot you the moment you kick open the door are you going to risk robbing a house?
Sure, but if you assume everyone is armed the logical response in a lot of cases is to shoot first. You're causing further escalation.
I thought the whole "an armed society is a polite society" myth had long been busted.
Across most countries, yes |
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skyth
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Post by skyth on Mar 6, 2024 5:16:30 GMT -5
The police should have more mental health care training, etc. As they are the ones that are called to crisis situations that require it.
The point is, going in you can't be sure what is needed. |
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Post by herzlos on Mar 6, 2024 5:25:33 GMT -5
Exactly. You still need the police to respond to an incident and then try to handle it whilst a mental health expert gets to the scene. Just like you'd do with dogs, SWAT, etc.
But for that or any police action to work you need to have them trained in de-escalation and not roll up to a scene thinking they are in an 80's action movie.
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skyth
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Post by skyth on Mar 6, 2024 8:38:03 GMT -5
The big change, at least in the U.S., is to get rid of the warrior cop attitude that has been drilled into them. It needs to be acknowledged by the police that they have a dangerous job and it is their job to put themselves in danger to protect other people. This means not treating everyone they encounter like they are a possible lethal threat and intimidate them into behaving. This also means that I'd rather a police officer be hurt or killed than an innocent uninvolved person being injured or killed, especially by the police.
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mdgv2
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Post by mdgv2 on Mar 6, 2024 8:52:13 GMT -5
The key is First Responder.
If someone is acting erratically in public, you can’t exactly ask them if they’re having a breakdown, are off their tits on drugs, or are just a cunt deciding to make other people’s lives more difficult, and then decide what the response should be.
Police as First Responders. Train them in de-escalation. Train them to assess a situation. Provide them with reliable, specialised Second Responder backup when it’s needed. But don’t entirely limit them from taking action. If someone is an immediate threat to public safety and property or themselves?
Sometimes taking them down is going to be the necessary response. Just because you’ve got a mental health crisis expert on hand, doesn’t mean the person is going to listen or calm down.
But going back to the original premise? This all involves the Police rebuilding public trust, especially in areas where institutional racism has destroyed that trust over decades. A trusted Police force, not only to take action but for that action to be fair and proportionate is essential.
Shite like “Snitches Get Stitches” needs to be eroded away over time.
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Post by herzlos on Mar 6, 2024 9:42:45 GMT -5
It should be noted for the US audience that "taking them down" doesn't mean "gunning them down". You can disable someone without killing them.
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Post by pacific on Mar 12, 2024 9:18:47 GMT -5
Do police in the US ever use electrical/stun devices or mace spray? Some years go in my yoof I was working in a casino/slot machines place. A guy had come in during the morning and lost a load of money, went out swearing under his breath (this was not unusual) - he came back in later in the day and quite obviously off his head on drugs (this was in Bristol UK and sadly wasn't that uncommon a sight). I and a colleague locked ourselves in the cubicle in the building and pressed the panic button and within a few minutes a couple of police came in through the door - the guy in the meantime had been fruitlessly attempting to kick in the sides of some machines and was busy pulling machines over. The police took one look at the guy and just sprayed him directly in the face - I am not exaggerating to say that he was absolutely pole-axed, hit the ground like a sack of spuds and was utterly incapacitated. They then quickly rolled him over, fitted some cuffs and dragged him out the door (he was still pretty insensible).
I understand something like this spray isn't going to be effective at a range, if the suspected criminal is armed with a gun, but for this sort of instance (drug-crazed loon either unarmed or with a knife perhaps) - I am not sure of any other health impacts for something like this (and I have heard of people dying after being hit by an electrical charge) but wouldn't this be a better solution rather than just shooting them dead?
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skyth
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Post by skyth on Mar 12, 2024 10:16:24 GMT -5
Yeah. US police use tasers and mace. They've been video'd macing people for no reason as a matter of fact.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Mar 12, 2024 13:18:12 GMT -5
Yeah. US police use tasers and mace. They've been video'd macing people for no reason as a matter of fact. What was the name of the meme from the Occuoy Wallstreet days? It was the one based on video of an officer walking along of handcuffed, subdued college kids and blasting them each in the face with pepper spray. |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Mar 12, 2024 13:59:53 GMT -5
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Post by Haighus on Mar 12, 2024 17:50:24 GMT -5
What the fuck?
Firstly, what the hell is "university police"? Why do universities have their own police force? Honestly, police forces grow like mould in the US, don't pay attention for 5 minutes and your institution probably grows one.
Secondly:
...maybe he shouldn't have casually assaulted peaceful protesters if he wasn't keen on suffering..?
Weird that both sides got payouts.
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Post by Peregrine on Mar 12, 2024 18:55:54 GMT -5
wouldn't this be a better solution rather than just shooting them dead?
Yes, but you're starting from a premise that police are looking for effective solutions and want to avoid shooting people. The reality is police are trained to escalate situations to force obedience and that "officer safety" is the most important thing. Pepper spray/clubs/etc are primarily used on non-violent suspects, if there's any possible justification for deadly force cops are trained to shoot first and ask questions never (and then go home and have the best sex of your life as a reward).
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Post by Peregrine on Mar 12, 2024 19:02:56 GMT -5
Firstly, what the hell is "university police"? Why do universities have their own police force? Honestly, police forces grow like mould in the US, don't pay attention for 5 minutes and your institution probably grows one. To be fair that one is actually somewhat reasonable if you start from the premise that cops should exist at all. A lot of US universities are more like small towns in scale (mine had over 30,000 students) and university cops often have less power than real cops. It's just not practical to expand the town police force and get them building access to cover every minor case of alcohol in the dorms, petty theft, etc. |
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crispy78
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Post by crispy78 on Mar 13, 2024 2:48:00 GMT -5
I mean, that's another oddity to me in itself. You can buy a long rifle at 18 but have to wait another 3 years to buy a beer. If the UK police arrested students for drinking, they wouldn't have time to do anything else! Hell, I was drunk several times a week for my entire time at university and I was comparatively one of the sober ones.
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