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Post by Disciple of Fate on Aug 19, 2020 0:45:30 GMT -5
Beyond the pale it may be, I'm just left wondering how long it will take Republicans to come back from this, even though demographics are against them. Will that level of apathy be reached again in 2, 4 or 8 years?
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Aug 19, 2020 1:15:14 GMT -5
Are Qanon, Antifa, or BLM really "groups"? I think they all lay in some grey area when you try to define what a "group" is. If Antifa is not a "group" because it has no leadership and is more akin to a movement, then the same would apply to Qanon, right? (Not going into the politics of any of these groups at the moment). I just find it odd that one group can be called an "organization" when another can be dismissed as not being that. I try my hardest to stay away from anything 4chan, 4chan related, or 4chan tangent. This all sounds like coocoo basement dweller bullshit. As annoying as it is though, has Qanon actually hurt anyone yet? Group or movement are quite open, almost to the point of being interchangeable. All can be groups in the sense of having a unifying goal. I think the major distinction is, unfortunately, the underlying ideology. While it could be said that Q is the leader (by now as Baron said, the expectation is a Russian intelligence agency, even if it didn't start that way), what he spouts actually gets filtered and translated down the Qanon tree. Qanon is kind of like a horoscope in that sense, purposefully vague enough. BLM and Antifa have quite clear purpose though. Reduce police violence against black people and stop fascists respectively. But neither has a leader in the sense of Qanon or even really figureheads at this point, that filter down the message. The Qanon movement/group also creates figureheads who wilfully engage these dangerous beliefs, the Trump campaign and Trump have done so (creating the idea that they're in on it, validating the idea that they are waging a war on paedophiles led by Trump), hell Flynn has taken the 'oath of allegiance'. Bit on the BLM side no one really gets foisted in the figurehead role. Public figures support BLM, but you can't easily point to one and say they're important or influential in the movement. In that sense, its easier to point out the 'leadership' of Qanon, even if its done out of a cynical attempt to gain votes, but to Qanon believers this is literal acknowledgement of their beliefs by the leader their oracle spoke of. I'm going to drop Antifa for one reason, while their members might be violent at times, this is mostly in the form of property damage in whatever form, murder has never really been on the agenda in their decades of existence in some shape or form. This is helped by two things, there aren't (or weren't) a lot of fascists running around directly threatening society and Antifa itself is tiny. Experts assume in the low hundreds in the US, with perhaps a dozen in every large city, mostly disconnected from other areas. Yeah Antifa might get someone crazy enough eventually, but that chance is quite low when you're talking about 0.001% of the population. BLM isn't violent in essence, they want change and the best way to get change is political pressure, violence isn't really the key to that. The violence that has occurred is a tiny part of the BLM protests and its hard to tie rioters to peaceful protesters, one is not the other. The same way the Unite the Right rally wasn't representative of the entire US right wing. But when someone commits violence because of Qanon, that line of thinking is easily traced back to Qanon, given the very obvious ideological beliefs behind it that can lead to violence. They key difference with Qanon is a violent ideology combined with size. It might be somewhere between 0.1-1% of the population. That is a large pond to fish out the 'crazies' from. The idea that Q and Trump are fighting a cabal of deep state paedophiles can easily incite violence to 'save the children' (it did for abortion clinics f.e.) and has once so far. The danger is that the more that these echo chambers get a hold of people, the more we start seeing what we saw with the incel movement. Now imagine if Trump, who is 'fighting the paedophiles' loses. Trump being Trump, we know how he will take that loss and gripe about it being rigged, this and that. Then what? Trump has lost his 'war with the paedophile cabal'? Trump will create this idea in their minds that the 'cabal' forced him out. Will this lead more Qanon believers to resort to violence because the war is being lost, to personally save the children? It might not, but then again, instead of the nebulous deep state to fight against, they have also singled out enough individuals. |
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carlo87
Ye Olde King of OT
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Post by carlo87 on Aug 19, 2020 5:42:15 GMT -5
Not disputing that other groups, regardless of ideology, are seeing opportunity to create mischief. Agreed. However, it's both the Antifa and BLM crowd who's doing the rioting/looting these days. They don't get a pass. Burned buildings/looted storefronts/riots was done by which groups? Are Qanon, Antifa, or BLM really "groups"? I think they all lay in some grey area when you try to define what a "group" is. If Antifa is not a "group" because it has no leadership and is more akin to a movement, then the same would apply to Qanon, right? (Not going into the politics of any of these groups at the moment). I just find it odd that one group can be called an "organization" when another can be dismissed as not being that. I try my hardest to stay away from anything 4chan, 4chan related, or 4chan tangent. This all sounds like coocoo basement dweller bullshit. As annoying as it is though, has Qanon actually hurt anyone yet? 1. The damaged buildings and "rioting" during the protests have been done by neo-nazis. Remember the umbrella man? He was recently revealed to be a neo-nazi. 2. Qanon ABSOLUTELY has clear leadership until antifa or BLM and has led to many extremists shooting places up, i.e. schools or the most famous, the pizza parlor. The "coocoo basement dweller bullshit" as you call it is directly responsible for the majority of right wing terrorism in the last several years which coincidently has also been the source of the majority of domestic terrorism in the US, with some years having right wing terrorism be the ONLY source of domestic terrorism. 3. Again, the vast VAST VAST majority of "rioting/looting" you're parroting from Fox without any effort to fact check the claim, as is usual for you, is being done by organized criminals or neo-nazis. Hell, you even say so up front in your own post then promptly ignore it 2-3 sentences later! Amazing. You might want to look a little closer. My post had a pretty obvious formatting error when I was trying to quote Whembly, so some of what you are trying to attribute to me I didn't say. That being said, you trying to pass off all the rioting on neo-nazis if fucking idiotic. I'm not saying that some of it wasn't, but the VAST majority of it was by BLM/Antifa crowd. They have been accredited with over 30 deaths in the last 6 months, so let's not pretend their hands are totally clean. |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Aug 19, 2020 6:21:14 GMT -5
Correction, riots and such have been accredited with those deaths, not Antifa or BLM. Similar to how were accrediting Charlottesville to the perpetrator and not all the individual groups at the rally. You bet they would tie left wing motive to those murders if they could.
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Aug 19, 2020 6:41:07 GMT -5
Good thing the Russia collusion thing is a hoax and conspiracy theory, otherwise the conclusions of the (bipartisan) senate intelligence committee that Manafort worked with a Russian spy would've looked real bad. Oh,and on the whole rioting: this is, inevitably, what happens when people have had enough, and supporters of the status quo always clutch their pearls in outrage that someone dare resist their Perfectly Benevolent System (TM). A high school student could've told you that. Your side chose to respond to protests against police violence by loudly proclaiming that wasn't true while purposely targeting members of the press and ramping up the police violence a few notches. In 1931, the Swedish army (bolstering local police) opened fire on a demonstration protesting in support of a strike in a local paper mill, killing five people. The event led to a total and complete ban on using the Armed Forces for domestic law enforcement. There's still people who argue that the protesters had it coming, and they're invariably far right. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the Republican party isn't Hitler, it's von Papen. They are so scared and blind that they'd rather ally with a monster that they think they can control than lose power. McCarthy got kicked to the curb by the Republicans, but he was just a symptom. The fear of socialism mirrors the ridiculous fear of crypto-catholics/protestants/calvinists in Europe during the Renaissance and early modern era. Spoiler alert: demagogues aren't controllable. Edit: English Wikipedia actually has a page on the Ådalen shootings. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85dalen_shootings |
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Aug 19, 2020 7:58:35 GMT -5
1. The damaged buildings and "rioting" during the protests have been done by neo-nazis. Remember the umbrella man? He was recently revealed to be a neo-nazi. 2. Qanon ABSOLUTELY has clear leadership until antifa or BLM and has led to many extremists shooting places up, i.e. schools or the most famous, the pizza parlor. The "coocoo basement dweller bullshit" as you call it is directly responsible for the majority of right wing terrorism in the last several years which coincidently has also been the source of the majority of domestic terrorism in the US, with some years having right wing terrorism be the ONLY source of domestic terrorism. 3. Again, the vast VAST VAST majority of "rioting/looting" you're parroting from Fox without any effort to fact check the claim, as is usual for you, is being done by organized criminals or neo-nazis. Hell, you even say so up front in your own post then promptly ignore it 2-3 sentences later! Amazing. You might want to look a little closer. My post had a pretty obvious formatting error when I was trying to quote Whembly, so some of what you are trying to attribute to me I didn't say. That being said, you trying to pass off all the rioting on neo-nazis if fucking idiotic. I'm not saying that some of it wasn't, but the VAST majority of it was by BLM/Antifa crowd. They have been accredited with over 30 deaths in the last 6 months, so let's not pretend their hands are totally clean. Uh, no they haven't. That's a flat out lie. Where are you getting your misinformation from? Antifa has not been connected to a murder in something like 25 years. Here's the first source on google, try using it next time before making such a stupid claim. www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/27/us-rightwing-extremists-attacks-deaths-database-leftwing-antifaAnd again, I provided you with proof of agent provocateurs and you seem happy to deny it. What, are you upset that republicans and their favored base (neo nazis) are responsible for bad things? Do you want more? www.marketwatch.com/story/us-officials-investigate-protest-disinformation-possible-agents-provocateur-2020-05-31mronline.org/2020/06/05/agent-provocateurs-police-at-protests-all-over-the-country-caught-destroying-property/Until you can prove otherwise, their hands ARE clean. You're buying into exactly what the anti-protest crowd wants you to. So on that note, what's your proof that it's being caused by antifa/BLM? Because fox news says so? Or are you taking issue with me calling white supremacists neo nazis? Oh, and again I said the vast majority. Please actually bother to read. And no response on Qanon? Unsurprising tbh. |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Aug 19, 2020 11:16:14 GMT -5
Good thing the Russia collusion thing is a hoax and conspiracy theory, otherwise the conclusions of the (bipartisan) senate intelligence committee that Manafort worked with a Russian spy would've looked real bad. Obviously that bipartisan committee consisted of Democrats and RINOs. No true Republican would produce such a heretical report. But to be fair, he can call it a hoax because all the people involved were too fucking stupid to think things through, collusion isn't a legal term and they have just enough deniability. So this report doesn't undermine the core underpinnings of the hoax narrative unfortunately. Unfortunately they didn't take the approach of "even if you don't know you're committing a crime, its still a crime", looking at you Jr and Jared. White rich privilege ftw! |
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carlo87
Ye Olde King of OT
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Post by carlo87 on Aug 19, 2020 18:47:43 GMT -5
Correction, riots and such have been accredited with those deaths, not Antifa or BLM. Similar to how were accrediting Charlottesville to the perpetrator and not all the individual groups at the rally. You bet they would tie left wing motive to those murders if they could. So, you're position on the subject (and one I in general agree with) is that even if one side is "bad" that a loan wolf amongst them that does a truly horrible act on his own should not necessarily share the blame with the whole of their side. It's odd, since many here were pretty quick to blame an entire side for the Charlottesville deaths. |
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Aug 19, 2020 19:36:49 GMT -5
Correction, riots and such have been accredited with those deaths, not Antifa or BLM. Similar to how were accrediting Charlottesville to the perpetrator and not all the individual groups at the rally. You bet they would tie left wing motive to those murders if they could. So, you're position on the subject (and one I in general agree with) is that even if one side is "bad" that a loan wolf amongst them that does a truly horrible act on his own should not necessarily share the blame with the whole of their side. It's odd, since many here were pretty quick to blame an entire side for the Charlottesville deaths. I'm gonna assume that means you don't want to confront reality around the protests so you can maintain the illusion of "both sides bad." You're quick to claim any right-wing actors are lone wolves previously but happy to paint all left-wing protestors as violent extremists. |
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carlo87
Ye Olde King of OT
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Post by carlo87 on Aug 19, 2020 20:03:26 GMT -5
You might want to look a little closer. My post had a pretty obvious formatting error when I was trying to quote Whembly, so some of what you are trying to attribute to me I didn't say. That being said, you trying to pass off all the rioting on neo-nazis if fucking idiotic. I'm not saying that some of it wasn't, but the VAST majority of it was by BLM/Antifa crowd. They have been accredited with over 30 deaths in the last 6 months, so let's not pretend their hands are totally clean. Uh, no they haven't. That's a flat out lie. Where are you getting your misinformation from? Antifa has not been connected to a murder in something like 25 years. Here's the first source on google, try using it next time before making such a stupid claim. www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/27/us-rightwing-extremists-attacks-deaths-database-leftwing-antifaAnd again, I provided you with proof of agent provocateurs and you seem happy to deny it. What, are you upset that republicans and their favored base (neo nazis) are responsible for bad things? Do you want more? www.marketwatch.com/story/us-officials-investigate-protest-disinformation-possible-agents-provocateur-2020-05-31mronline.org/2020/06/05/agent-provocateurs-police-at-protests-all-over-the-country-caught-destroying-property/Until you can prove otherwise, their hands ARE clean. You're buying into exactly what the anti-protest crowd wants you to. So on that note, what's your proof that it's being caused by antifa/BLM? Because fox news says so? Or are you taking issue with me calling white supremacists neo nazis? Oh, and again I said the vast majority. Please actually bother to read. And no response on Qanon? Unsurprising tbh. I didn't respond to your Qanon segment partially because the first half of what you were saying was barely recognizable as English. If it was somewhat reasonably punctuated and had some symbolism of proper syntax I may have engaged, but your first couple lines didn't make much sense. Now, are there recognizable screen names for Qanon, yeah, but are they akin to what a Grand Kegel is to a standard KKK member? I'd say that's probably pushing it. I mean, there are recognizable figureheads and leaders in the BLM movement too, multiple of which have endorsed looting and vandalism. As for your sources, I find it REALLY hard to take Market Watch seriously, especially since in the article you linked to they alluded, once more, to Trump calling White Supremacists in Charlottesville "good people" when that has been debunked. Also, I don't think the article you linked to with rightwing/leftwing violence states what you think it does. Although labeled leftwing/rightwing the definitions they used in their methodology (as per your link) aren't based on political leanings, but the motives for the incident. Any killing related to race/sex/sexuality or antigovernment/antiauthority was "rightwing". This means that a hypothetical Leroy Jones, New Black Panther member, out to kill him some Whities and cops, who always votes Democrat strait ticket would be classified as "rightwing". I'd actually like to go through all 893 listed incidents in that study if I could. I'm also questioning why part of their data collection process used Worldwide terrorism data, but they also state this study is to reflect terrorism within the US. I'd think that only terrorism from within would be included. Comparing the Alt Right to Antifa does seem to me to be comparing apples and oranges. Antifa is "a political protest movement comprising autonomous groups affiliated by their militant opposition to fascism and other forms of extreme right-wing ideology". It's also pretty hard to determine who is and isn't "Antifa". While far right terrorism could refer to any single nut job. |
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carlo87
Ye Olde King of OT
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Post by carlo87 on Aug 19, 2020 20:05:01 GMT -5
So, you're position on the subject (and one I in general agree with) is that even if one side is "bad" that a loan wolf amongst them that does a truly horrible act on his own should not necessarily share the blame with the whole of their side. It's odd, since many here were pretty quick to blame an entire side for the Charlottesville deaths. I'm gonna assume that means you don't want to confront reality around the protests so you can maintain the illusion of "both sides bad." You're quick to claim any right-wing actors are lone wolves previously but happy to paint all left-wing protestors as violent extremists. I have never called all left-wing protestors violent extremists. |
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carlo87
Ye Olde King of OT
Posts: 663
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Post by carlo87 on Aug 19, 2020 20:12:11 GMT -5
Good thing the Russia collusion thing is a hoax and conspiracy theory, otherwise the conclusions of the (bipartisan) senate intelligence committee that Manafort worked with a Russian spy would've looked real bad. Oh,and on the whole rioting: this is, inevitably, what happens when people have had enough, and supporters of the status quo always clutch their pearls in outrage that someone dare resist their Perfectly Benevolent System (TM). A high school student could've told you that. Your side chose to respond to protests against police violence by loudly proclaiming that wasn't true while purposely targeting members of the press and ramping up the police violence a few notches. In 1931, the Swedish army (bolstering local police) opened fire on a demonstration protesting in support of a strike in a local paper mill, killing five people. The event led to a total and complete ban on using the Armed Forces for domestic law enforcement. There's still people who argue that the protesters had it coming, and they're invariably far right. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the Republican party isn't Hitler, it's von Papen. They are so scared and blind that they'd rather ally with a monster that they think they can control than lose power. McCarthy got kicked to the curb by the Republicans, but he was just a symptom. The fear of socialism mirrors the ridiculous fear of crypto-catholics/protestants/calvinists in Europe during the Renaissance and early modern era. Spoiler alert: demagogues aren't controllable. Edit: English Wikipedia actually has a page on the Ådalen shootings. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85dalen_shootingsThe reality of it is that both sides have a monster they think they can control. I just wish there was a viable third option instead of trying to determine who will fuck us the least. As Horrible a movie as Kevin Costner's "The Postman" was, I would relish a new government that had no political parties. |
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Aug 19, 2020 21:03:04 GMT -5
I'm gonna assume that means you don't want to confront reality around the protests so you can maintain the illusion of "both sides bad." You're quick to claim any right-wing actors are lone wolves previously but happy to paint all left-wing protestors as violent extremists. I have never called all left-wing protestors violent extremists. but the VAST majority of it was by BLM/Antifa crowd. They have been accredited with over 30 deaths in the last 6 months, so let's not pretend their hands are totally clean. I'm sorry, you only implied it! Seriously, you JUST complained about the "VAST majority" of protesters looting or rioting or killing people. And I mean, these are very much antifa/BLM protests, so don't even try and pretend that the majority of protesters there aren't supporting antifa/BLM. I didn't respond to your Qanon segment partially because the first half of what you were saying was barely recognizable as English. If it was somewhat reasonably punctuated and had some symbolism of proper syntax I may have engaged, but your first couple lines didn't make much sense. Now, are there recognizable screen names for Qanon, yeah, but are they akin to what a Grand Kegel is to a standard KKK member? I'd say that's probably pushing it. I mean, there are recognizable figureheads and leaders in the BLM movement too, multiple of which have endorsed looting and vandalism. As for your sources, I find it REALLY hard to take Market Watch seriously, especially since in the article you linked to they alluded, once more, to Trump calling White Supremacists in Charlottesville "good people" when that has been debunked. Also, I don't think the article you linked to with rightwing/leftwing violence states what you think it does. Although labeled leftwing/rightwing the definitions they used in their methodology (as per your link) aren't based on political leanings, but the motives for the incident. Any killing related to race/sex/sexuality or antigovernment/antiauthority was "rightwing". This means that a hypothetical Leroy Jones, New Black Panther member, out to kill him some Whities and cops, who always votes Democrat strait ticket would be classified as "rightwing". I'd actually like to go through all 893 listed incidents in that study if I could. I'm also questioning why part of their data collection process used Worldwide terrorism data, but they also state this study is to reflect terrorism within the US. I'd think that only terrorism from within would be included. Comparing the Alt Right to Antifa does seem to me to be comparing apples and oranges. Antifa is "a political protest movement comprising autonomous groups affiliated by their militant opposition to fascism and other forms of extreme right-wing ideology". It's also pretty hard to determine who is and isn't "Antifa". While far right terrorism could refer to any single nut job. Trump calling neo nazis "good people"/marketwatch: He ABSOLUTELY did. You wanna explain how these people are good? Or maybe these ones both of whom were chanting "jews will not replace us" or "blood and soil." Here's a video talking about these "good people" as trump calls them (it's only about 30 seconds, but feel free to watch all of it). Please explain how they're good people, because I can't fathom it and I'm eager to see you explain how literal neo-nazis are good people. Seriously. This is who trump is calling good people. The rally was organized and promoted by fucking Jason Kessler and Richard Spencer, prominent neo-nazis! There were NO good people on the side of the protesters. The only good people there were the counter-protesters. You're really bending over backwards to defend trump on this one. So you dismissing MW is hilarious. You're actively admitting you live in delusion so you can ignore sources and keep pretending that both sides are equally bad. BLM "looting/vandalism": Gonna need a source for that. I suspect it's the same place you get the rest of your neo-nazi propaganda though. Some "radio show" you listen to. Your hypothetical: I can't find what you're basing this on, so let's leave out hypotheticals because you can make up anything you want to support yourself this way. Let's return to reality, which I know you have a hard time with. |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Aug 20, 2020 0:48:07 GMT -5
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carlo87
Ye Olde King of OT
Posts: 663
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Post by carlo87 on Aug 20, 2020 2:29:52 GMT -5
I have never called all left-wing protestors violent extremists. but the VAST majority of it was by BLM/Antifa crowd. They have been accredited with over 30 deaths in the last 6 months, so let's not pretend their hands are totally clean. I'm sorry, you only implied it! Seriously, you JUST complained about the "VAST majority" of protesters looting or rioting or killing people. And I mean, these are very much antifa/BLM protests, so don't even try and pretend that the majority of protesters there aren't supporting antifa/BLM. I didn't respond to your Qanon segment partially because the first half of what you were saying was barely recognizable as English. If it was somewhat reasonably punctuated and had some symbolism of proper syntax I may have engaged, but your first couple lines didn't make much sense. Now, are there recognizable screen names for Qanon, yeah, but are they akin to what a Grand Kegel is to a standard KKK member? I'd say that's probably pushing it. I mean, there are recognizable figureheads and leaders in the BLM movement too, multiple of which have endorsed looting and vandalism. As for your sources, I find it REALLY hard to take Market Watch seriously, especially since in the article you linked to they alluded, once more, to Trump calling White Supremacists in Charlottesville "good people" when that has been debunked. Also, I don't think the article you linked to with rightwing/leftwing violence states what you think it does. Although labeled leftwing/rightwing the definitions they used in their methodology (as per your link) aren't based on political leanings, but the motives for the incident. Any killing related to race/sex/sexuality or antigovernment/antiauthority was "rightwing". This means that a hypothetical Leroy Jones, New Black Panther member, out to kill him some Whities and cops, who always votes Democrat strait ticket would be classified as "rightwing". I'd actually like to go through all 893 listed incidents in that study if I could. I'm also questioning why part of their data collection process used Worldwide terrorism data, but they also state this study is to reflect terrorism within the US. I'd think that only terrorism from within would be included. Comparing the Alt Right to Antifa does seem to me to be comparing apples and oranges. Antifa is "a political protest movement comprising autonomous groups affiliated by their militant opposition to fascism and other forms of extreme right-wing ideology". It's also pretty hard to determine who is and isn't "Antifa". While far right terrorism could refer to any single nut job. Trump calling neo nazis "good people"/marketwatch: He ABSOLUTELY did. You wanna explain how these people are good? Or maybe these ones both of whom were chanting "jews will not replace us" or "blood and soil." Here's a video talking about these "good people" as trump calls them (it's only about 30 seconds, but feel free to watch all of it). Please explain how they're good people, because I can't fathom it and I'm eager to see you explain how literal neo-nazis are good people. Saying that a vast majority of vandalization was caused my the BLM/Antifa crowd does not mean that a vast majority of the BLM/Antifa crowd are vandals. You seem to have a huge problem with reading comprehension, or you just like twisting words. Something tells me it's a little of both. That youtube video you linked to was ridiculously biased. 3 years ago when things happened in Charlottesville this exactly topic was rehashed (cant remember if it was here or dakka) with Trump's full speech being played. In a Press briefing he condemned the violence from both sides, and yes there was violence on both sides. Was it equal? No someone ran their car into a crowd, but as was previously discussed you can't really hold a whole group responsible for one guy's lone actions. In his first speech after it happened (the good people on both sides speech) he denounced the Nazi element and specifically stated that the "good people" he was referring to were not the Neo-Nazis. There were other people simply there to protest removal of Confederate statues (including African American People, which I dare you to call White Supremacists). Even hard-core lefties conceded this point. Hell it's even in the video you posted, around the 3 minute mark. To quote Trump "I'm not talking about the Neo-Nazis or the White Nationalists because they should be condemned totally, but you had many people other than Neo Nazis and White Nationalists, okay?" |
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