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Post by herzlos on Oct 25, 2023 6:25:01 GMT -5
Israel wants UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres sacked after he pointed out that the Hamas attack didn't occur in a vacuum and mentioned the 57 years of occupation. www.politico.eu/article/israel-united-nations-antonio-guterres-hamas-attack-vacuum-comments/“The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation,” Guterres said, according to Israeli outlet Haaretz, to the 15-member U.N. Security Council Tuesday after the Hamas-led Ministry of Health in Gaza reported more than 700 Palestinians were killed in 24 hours of Israeli airstrikes, the highest daily death toll since the bombardment began. “But the grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling attacks by Hamas. And those appalling attacks cannot justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people.” But of course Israel are not going to be happy with any criticism. |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Oct 25, 2023 8:54:36 GMT -5
Dozens of his employees have been killed in Gaza, but trying to stay politically neutral is a good way to get people to jump down your throat from either side.
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Post by herzlos on Oct 25, 2023 11:05:22 GMT -5
Sunak is still refusing to call for a ceasefire in Palestine, sticking to the line that Israel needs to defend itself from the terrorist attack.
Normally Prime Ministers are a bit more non-committal about making sides and pushing for peace, so this seems like a new thing.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Oct 25, 2023 11:55:20 GMT -5
They’re hurting Israel in the long run by backing the Netanyahu regime. Feels like events have mega-rewarded the guy who assassinated Rabin, which troubles me.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Oct 25, 2023 13:02:58 GMT -5
Well slightly over half of the Isrealis keep rewarding him by voting for him. I don't think it matters much for his career, which would hopefully be over once the dust clears.
The western response was expected, no matter who would be in charge.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Oct 25, 2023 13:21:29 GMT -5
Was it more than half? I had the impression that Bibi and the right had gamed the system well while the left parties stepped on each other’s toes, throwing away votes that would have defeated him. Most of my Israeli acquaintances are secular and anti-Bibi, so I had the impression he was more like the Donald Trump of Israel.
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Post by Haighus on Oct 25, 2023 13:49:28 GMT -5
Was it more than half? I had the impression that Bibi and the right had gamed the system well while the left parties stepped on each other’s toes, throwing away votes that would have defeated him. Most of my Israeli acquaintances are secular and anti-Bibi, so I had the impression he was more like the Donald Trump of Israel. This may be splitting hairs... but I get the impression he is more akin to Viktor Orban than Trump. |
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Post by herzlos on Oct 25, 2023 13:49:43 GMT -5
They’re hurting Israel in the long run by backing the Netanyahu regime. Feels like events have mega-rewarded the guy who assassinated Rabin, which troubles me. The long term hypothetical downfall of Israel isn't going to be of much comfort for the Palestinians now. It wasn't long ago that world leaders would at least publicly ask for peace from both sides. |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Oct 25, 2023 13:57:19 GMT -5
Was it more than half? I had the impression that Bibi and the right had gamed the system well while the left parties stepped on each other’s toes, throwing away votes that would have defeated him. Most of my Israeli acquaintances are secular and anti-Bibi, so I had the impression he was more like the Donald Trump of Israel. I should have said slightly over half of the valid votes. He inched over the line thanks to 30% not showing up to vote and about 5% of those that did vote throwing their votes on parties that weren't making it. Question is what responsibility that 30% has, when the choice seemed pretty clear given the type of people Bibi surrounds himself with and who he himself is. I agree with Haighus that he is more like Orban, Trump is kind of a moron that lucked out with (part of) the American public. Orban and Bibi are much more ruthless and pragmatic autocrats. |
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Oct 25, 2023 14:59:44 GMT -5
They’re hurting Israel in the long run by backing the Netanyahu regime. Feels like events have mega-rewarded the guy who assassinated Rabin, which troubles me. Israeli assassinations that have been rewarded date back at least to the murder of UN negotiator Folke Bernadotte back in 1948.
Lehi, the group behind the assassination, ran a terror campaign murdering people to get what they wanted, an Israeli state. Yitzhak Shamir, one of the group's leaders, went on to become elected as Prime Minister of Israel in 1986. There's a colossal amount of hypocrisy involved.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Oct 25, 2023 15:22:47 GMT -5
Even now, the extremist part of the Isreali government has been handing out weapons to West Bank settlers, which have gone on to murder Palestinians. Israel is still engaging in state sponsored terrorism, it's hypocrisy all the way down to the founding as Walrus says: www.npr.org/2023/10/20/1207543936/israel-palestine-hamas-west-bank |
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Oct 25, 2023 15:54:36 GMT -5
They’re hurting Israel in the long run by backing the Netanyahu regime. Feels like events have mega-rewarded the guy who assassinated Rabin, which troubles me. The long term hypothetical downfall of Israel isn't going to be of much comfort for the Palestinians now. It wasn't long ago that world leaders would at least publicly ask for peace from both sides. Partly, I think that’s a result of the loss of nuance in our politics. Partially, I think there has been a growing cynicism about calls for peace. Is Europe even pushing for Israel to step back? If so, I haven’t heard about it. If not, that’s more troubling to me than the US standing rah-rah in the bomb-em-terr’ists camp. |
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Post by semipotentwalrus on Oct 26, 2023 15:37:32 GMT -5
Even now, the extremist part of the Isreali government has been handing out weapons to West Bank settlers, which have gone on to murder Palestinians. Israel is still engaging in state sponsored terrorism, it's hypocrisy all the way down to the founding as Walrus says: www.npr.org/2023/10/20/1207543936/israel-palestine-hamas-west-bankJust to add to the story because Bernadotte in particular pisses me off as a Swede, Bernadotte organized the so-called White Buses towards the end of WW2 and the collapse of Nazi Germany, saving more than fifteen thousand* survivors from concentration camps. While the main objective was the liberation and repatriation of Norwegian and Danish prisoners, a bunch of those prisoners were, obviously, also Jewish. The campaign saved over a thousand Jews from concentration camps. The man should've been declared Righteous Among Nations; instead he got murdered.
If Israel is to endure long-term as a state they need to settle the score with their right-wing extremists once and for all for their own sake. These people won't hesitate to murder Israelis either, as evidenced by the murder of Yitzhak Rabin.
*PDF in Swedish, sorry. Official Red Cross summary stating that 15 345 people were saved from camps. |
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nfe
OT Cowboy
Posts: 211
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Post by nfe on Oct 27, 2023 2:40:36 GMT -5
There is absolutely zero chance of Israel collapsing or failing as a state. I have no idea where that talk is coming from?
This government won't last and Bibi is done after this war (or potentially during it), but the state is in no danger.
It will be a perennial pariah to its neighbours, even after the creation of a Palestinian state, but none of them will bring it down.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Oct 27, 2023 4:43:09 GMT -5
Maybe it was meant more as survive as a (semi) democratic state instead of sliding into some sort of theocracy?
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