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Post by pacific on Oct 31, 2024 10:21:06 GMT -5
Well easye, very well done of you to protest but please be careful. Remember that a lot of these people are prepared to sink lower than you will be, and happy to crawl around in the mud to fight as they have less to lose.
Watched quite an interesting documentary on Roger Stone, "A Storm Foretold". Created by a Danish filmmaker who was travelling alongside Stone up to and over the 2020 election. What an absolutely twisted narcissist; I found it interesting that as soon as it looked like the s*** was going to go down on January 6th, he (who had done perhaps as much as anyone to promote the 'stop the steal' campaign, well in advance of the election result) suddenly found himself with somewhere else to be.
The fact that he had been involved with Reagan and both Bushes makes you realise how much of the politics is run like they are a bunch of mobsters.
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Post by easye on Oct 31, 2024 11:36:47 GMT -5
Yeah, but if good folks do nothing..... blah, blah, blah.....
We can't let the fascist be the only idea seen in the media. The Brook's Brothers riot is a great example. Republicans protested and were visible and that was just enough cover to boot the 2000 election to the Supreme Court for Bush v Gore. If there had also been a strong "Keep Counting" counter-protest, would the Brook's Brothers Riot have worked? The world will never know.
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Post by redchimera on Oct 31, 2024 11:50:20 GMT -5
It's almost as if.... they're garbage? |
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carlo87
Ye Olde King of OT
Posts: 663
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Post by carlo87 on Oct 31, 2024 14:41:38 GMT -5
Yeah, but if good folks do nothing..... blah, blah, blah..... We can't let the fascist be the only idea seen in the media. The Brook's Brothers riot is a great example. Republicans protested and were visible and that was just enough cover to boot the 2000 election to the Supreme Court for Bush v Gore. If there had also been a strong "Keep Counting" counter-protest, would the Brook's Brothers Riot have worked? The world will never know. To be fair the vote count ruling likely didn't change anything in 2000. Thos votes ended up being counted unofficially anyway. In fact they were counted something like 8 times using different sets of criteria. In 4 of those cases Bush increased his lead, in 3 cases Gore only made small gains but still lost, and in one case Gore won, but by the tightest of margins of any of the counts |
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Post by easye on Oct 31, 2024 16:15:30 GMT -5
Yeah, but if good folks do nothing..... blah, blah, blah..... We can't let the fascist be the only idea seen in the media. The Brook's Brothers riot is a great example. Republicans protested and were visible and that was just enough cover to boot the 2000 election to the Supreme Court for Bush v Gore. If there had also been a strong "Keep Counting" counter-protest, would the Brook's Brothers Riot have worked? The world will never know. To be fair the vote count ruling likely didn't change anything in 2000. Thos votes ended up being counted unofficially anyway. In fact they were counted something like 8 times using different sets of criteria. In 4 of those cases Bush increased his lead, in 3 cases Gore only made small gains but still lost, and in one case Gore won, but by the tightest of margins of any of the counts Got a citation? Ultimately, I think you are right. So why did the SC have to step in again? |
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Oct 31, 2024 17:06:51 GMT -5
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Post by Haighus on Nov 1, 2024 2:01:54 GMT -5
I'm not sure how you fuck up a vote count to the point different counting procedures get different results?
Surely they just get... counted?
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Post by Peregrine on Nov 1, 2024 4:05:37 GMT -5
I'm not sure how you fuck up a vote count to the point different counting procedures get different results? Surely they just get... counted? The issue was ballots that were not clearly marked. There was a punch card system where you punched out the bit matching the candidate you were voting for. Obviously a cleanly punched ballot with a complete hole is a vote but what if it isn't completely punched out? You could argue that a ballot where the punched out part is hanging by a thread of paper in one corner was a clear expression of intent by the voter and should be counted but what if it's only halfway punched out? What if there's a dent in the paper where there may have been an attempt to punch it out or possibly just random damage? What if one is punched out cleanly but there's a partial punch for a different candidate? And similar issues come up with other ballot systems. If you use a fill in the bubble system you have all kinds of disputes over partially filled bubbles, etc. If you have a write-in candidate do you count "Bobb Smith" as a vote for Bob Smith or do you throw it out?
This happens every year with every election, it just happened to be the case in 2000 that Florida came down to such narrow and nationally relevant margins that disputed ballots potentially made a difference instead of being of interest only to the elections officials.
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Post by herzlos on Nov 1, 2024 4:14:54 GMT -5
Unclear votes is certainly an issue, but is there enough of them that are genuinely unclear enough to skew the vote? In a fresh shocker, Conservatives are upset about the advert suggesting women can vote however they want, because their husbands will know. Equating it to having an affair, whilst voting for the serial adulterer. thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4964265-kamala-harris-ad-julia-roberts/ |
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Post by Peregrine on Nov 1, 2024 4:46:31 GMT -5
Unclear votes is certainly an issue, but is there enough of them that are genuinely unclear enough to skew the vote? That is exactly what happened in 2000. |
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Post by pacific on Nov 1, 2024 4:59:56 GMT -5
It's almost as if.... they're garbage? Hopefully the fact that many hundreds of the rioters that acted illegally in 2020 are now serving jail time will help dissuade others. I think a number of the senior proud boys and oath keepers are in jail too, which might mean there will be less dumbass henchmen? Although they do seem to be stacking up the 'stop the steal' narrative well in advance and with some effort. |
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Post by redchimera on Nov 1, 2024 5:24:14 GMT -5
Unclear votes is certainly an issue, but is there enough of them that are genuinely unclear enough to skew the vote? In a fresh shocker, Conservatives are upset about the advert suggesting women can vote however they want, because their husbands will know. Equating it to having an affair, whilst voting for the serial adulterer. thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4964265-kamala-harris-ad-julia-roberts/Good to see Liz Cheney bringing the word "twit" back into American political discourse. |
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Post by herzlos on Nov 1, 2024 6:50:35 GMT -5
It's almost as if.... they're garbage? Hopefully the fact that many hundreds of the rioters that acted illegally in 2020 are now serving jail time will help dissuade others. I think a number of the senior proud boys and oath keepers are in jail too, which might mean there will be less dumbass henchmen? Although they do seem to be stacking up the 'stop the steal' narrative well in advance and with some effort. You are relying on people who dislike facts or history, to pay attention to facts and history to determine if something is a bad idea or not?
The patriots still in jail from the last act of sedition is just evidence of how corrupt the system is.
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Post by Haighus on Nov 1, 2024 7:58:47 GMT -5
Hopefully the fact that many hundreds of the rioters that acted illegally in 2020 are now serving jail time will help dissuade others. I think a number of the senior proud boys and oath keepers are in jail too, which might mean there will be less dumbass henchmen? Although they do seem to be stacking up the 'stop the steal' narrative well in advance and with some effort. You are relying on people who dislike facts or history, to pay attention to facts and history to determine if something is a bad idea or not?
The patriots still in jail from the last act of sedition is just evidence of how corrupt the system is.
I suspect this year will be more distributed. Rather than a big riot at the Capitol, I anticipate multiple smaller acts of political violence occurring across the USA. Hence why people like easye are preparing for local counterprotests. |
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Post by Haighus on Nov 1, 2024 8:15:00 GMT -5
I'm not sure how you fuck up a vote count to the point different counting procedures get different results? Surely they just get... counted? The issue was ballots that were not clearly marked. There was a punch card system where you punched out the bit matching the candidate you were voting for. Obviously a cleanly punched ballot with a complete hole is a vote but what if it isn't completely punched out? You could argue that a ballot where the punched out part is hanging by a thread of paper in one corner was a clear expression of intent by the voter and should be counted but what if it's only halfway punched out? What if there's a dent in the paper where there may have been an attempt to punch it out or possibly just random damage? What if one is punched out cleanly but there's a partial punch for a different candidate? And similar issues come up with other ballot systems. If you use a fill in the bubble system you have all kinds of disputes over partially filled bubbles, etc. If you have a write-in candidate do you count "Bobb Smith" as a vote for Bob Smith or do you throw it out?
This happens every year with every election, it just happened to be the case in 2000 that Florida came down to such narrow and nationally relevant margins that disputed ballots potentially made a difference instead of being of interest only to the elections officials.
That seems like a particularly terrible system. Obviously no system is perfect, but in the UK we have a very straightforward one where you draw an X in the box next to the name of your chosen candidate. Any other unambiguous mark selecting a single candidate (like a tick) is accepted. Anything ambiguous is rejected after it has been reviewed and confirmed as such, but ambiguous ballots are rare outside deliberately spoiled ballots because the vast majority of people are capable of following the instructions to draw an X in a box (there are provisions to assist disabled people with voting). Having a punchcard system seems to be a totally unnecessary layer of extra complication and potential ambiguity, as do electronic systems. For example, this is for ballots cast at polling stations from the UK general election 2019 (format has messed up a bit): No official mark Voting for more candidates Writing or mark by which the voter could be identified Unmarked Total rejected 574 20,983 1,585 93,959 117,101 Very few ballots were rejected for reasons of ambiguous marking (574 with no official mark). There were over 32 million ballots cast at polling stations that election. About 0.002%, which would essentially never meaningfully change the outcome of an election. Postal ballots are not included in this, so the total number is higher but I can't be bothered to analyse the more complicated postal ballot data. |
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