The War on Trans Folks

[skyth]

It's a lie that it was starting a fight. Throwing water at someone is not grounds for physical violence. Might as well say the 3 girls started the fight as they insulted and belittled Nex, which had the justified result of getting water thrown at them.

Plus it's a lie that the fight didn't lead to the death of Nex. It really looks like it was the straw that broke the camel's back as far as their mental health and ability to keep on going.

All you're doing is spewing misinformation to try to obfuscate the real issue here is that the anti-trans/LGBT environment caused this whole situation.

[crispy78]

As an aside, as an outsider getting glimpses in via the media etc, it does feel like America has a real problem with this sort of toxic alpha macho (yeah I know these were girls) behaviour. Feels like no-one ever wants to compromise or resolve things peacefully, everything seems to be treated as an excuse to kick off... Is this a fair comment or am I getting badly misled?

[carlo87]

Mar 21, 2024 11:23:09 GMT -5 skyth said:

It's a lie that it was starting a fight. Throwing water at someone is not grounds for physical violence. Might as well say the 3 girls started the fight as they insulted and belittled Nex, which had the justified result of getting water thrown at them.

Plus it's a lie that the fight didn't lead to the death of Nex. It really looks like it was the straw that broke the camel's back as far as their mental health and ability to keep on going.

All you're doing is spewing misinformation to try to obfuscate the real issue here is that the anti-trans/LGBT environment caused this whole situation.

Throwing water on someone IS assault and battery under the law, so yes, it is starting the fight. Not to mention we know nothing about what the girls' reaction immediately after getting dumped on was other than it started with some shoving (Nex's admission), which I wouldn't say was totally uncalled for at that exact point.  Who escalated it beyond that point is a she said/they said argument that can't be proven one way or the other. 

[carlo87]

Mar 21, 2024 11:28:32 GMT -5 crispy78 said:

As an aside, as an outsider getting glimpses in via the media etc, it does feel like America has a real problem with this sort of toxic alpha macho (yeah I know these were girls) behaviour. Feels like no-one ever wants to compromise or resolve things peacefully, everything seems to be treated as an excuse to kick off... Is this a fair comment or am I getting badly misled?

Honestly, I'd say this has been an issue for a long while, but it has gotten worse. It seems like a lot of people want an excuse to go off, yet if they situation were reversed they'd like to play the victim. 

[adurot]

Mar 21, 2024 10:33:53 GMT -5 carlo87 said:

Mar 15, 2024 20:07:39 GMT -5 adurot said:

What’s your source for that time frame? First google search result says the security footage has the fight lasting a couple minutes. Over five times the length you describe.

Would you like to see the school surveillance video? 

 www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ9-hYUr64g

Nex enters the bathroom at 2:02.  Faculty enters at 2:26 to break up the fight. Nex leaves the bathroom at 2:56

Have any with time stamps? Because that video looks like it’s skipping frames.

[easye]

I am not an expert, but we (Americans) have big cultural swings between collaboration and competition. For example, post- WWII we had a more collaborative culture (at least for white males) that broke down during the Vietnam era. The 80's ushered in a hyper-competitive cultural paradigm. That is just in the Post-WWII era. We can see these swings in the past as well with the Reconstruction Era, to the Guilded Age to the Progressive Age, etc. You can also see this coming together and breaking apart in the business world, spiritual/church world, Art world, etc. Granted, these are very broad strokes.

Therefore, I don't think this is particularly more or less competition/aggression than in the past as it tends to go in cycles. We probably won't be able to get a read on the present times until it is past for about 2-generations (50 years or so).

[skyth]

Mar 21, 2024 11:32:41 GMT -5 carlo87 said:

Mar 21, 2024 11:23:09 GMT -5 skyth said:

It's a lie that it was starting a fight. Throwing water at someone is not grounds for physical violence. Might as well say the 3 girls started the fight as they insulted and belittled Nex, which had the justified result of getting water thrown at them.

Plus it's a lie that the fight didn't lead to the death of Nex. It really looks like it was the straw that broke the camel's back as far as their mental health and ability to keep on going.

All you're doing is spewing misinformation to try to obfuscate the real issue here is that the anti-trans/LGBT environment caused this whole situation.

Throwing water on someone IS assault and battery under the law, so yes, it is starting the fight. Not to mention we know nothing about what the girls' reaction immediately after getting dumped on was other than it started with some shoving (Nex's admission), which I wouldn't say was totally uncalled for at that exact point.  Who escalated it beyond that point is a she said/they said argument that can't be proven one way or the other. 

Battery, not assault.  But regardless of the 'legal' definition, it's not starting a fight.  I love how you ignore that the 3 girls started everything by insulting and belittling Nex and her friend.  Or the this is a result of the anti-trans/lgbt bull that's been being spewed in the state elected officials.  Or trying to say that the fight had nothing to do with Nex's death. All misinformation to obfuscate the real issues going on here...


 

[carlo87]

Mar 21, 2024 11:41:08 GMT -5 adurot said:

Mar 21, 2024 10:33:53 GMT -5 carlo87 said:

Would you like to see the school surveillance video? 

 www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ9-hYUr64g

Nex enters the bathroom at 2:02.  Faculty enters at 2:26 to break up the fight. Nex leaves the bathroom at 2:56

Have any with time stamps? Because that video looks like it’s skipping frames.

 While this video from a news station does not have time stamps, they do confirm that staff entered the restroom 20 seconds after Nex.  www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKZZegR_83s

[bobtheinquisitor]

To me, the year long feud and bullying (even if just verbal) are the indirect cause of Nex’s death. This isn’t one incident but rather the last incident of many. Without the culture war and support for anti-trans bullying, would Nex have experienced the same feud and bullying that lead to their death? I doubt it.

[herzlos]

The water throwing thing was a bad idea, but I'm not sure that's not just the desperate/frustrated action of someone who's endured torment for a while. I suspect the beating was going to happen anyway but she played into their hands as being the one who "started" it. It certainly doesn't absolve the bullies of anything.

[Emblematic Wolfblade]

I don't think Carlos actually believes throwing water on someone is grounds for a beatdown, but I think they're invested in their sides narrative and admitting their side is wrong would be like admitting that they're wrong. They'll ignore however many bodies their side stacks up rather than admit that the right wing within the US is driving hate, bigotry, and is causing the death of kids.

Seriously, there's no need to defend this, no need to victim blame. Defending it and smearing the victim only serves to fuel the culture war the right is so deeply intertwined with.

[bobtheinquisitor]

I don’t think Carlo is going so far. I could be wrong but I get the impression he broadly agrees on the bigger picture against bullying, but has quibbles with specific details. I don’t think he is trying to shift all the blame on the victim.

[Emblematic Wolfblade]

Then why is he so stuck on whether or not the trans person started the fight? Why are they so insistent on defending the bullies? Why is he trying to shift the blame away from the bullying, away from the deeply ingrained bigotry of the republican party, and onto the victim?

That's how I see it at least.

[easye]

Oklahoma prosecutors will not press charges in Nex Benedict case

www.npr.org/2024/03/21/1240079971/nex-benedict-case-tulsa-da

The entire article is below for clarity.

Prosecutors in Oklahoma say they will not pursue charges in the death of Nex Benedict.

Benedict was a 16-year-old nonbinary student whose death last month was ruled a suicide. They had been injured in a fight with high school classmates the day before.

Benedict, who used both he/him and they/them pronouns, had been targeted by bullies in the months leading up to their death because of their gender identity, according to their family.

Bullying someone to attempt or complete suicide is a felony in Oklahoma, reported member station KOSU. But Tulsa County District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler says the fight was not one-sided and there's not enough evidence to press charges.

"Based upon the investigation of the Owasso Police Department, I am in the agreement with their assessment that the filing of juvenile charges is not warranted," Kunzweiler said in a press release Thursday. "From all the evidence gathered, this fight was an instance of mutual combat. I do not have a reasonable belief that the State of Oklahoma could sustain its burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt if charges were presented for prosecution."

Attorneys for Benedict's family have said injuries Benedict sustained in the fight were significant even if their death was ruled a suicide, KOSU reports.

Sarah Kate Ellis, president of the LGBTQ+ media advocacy group GLAAD, told KOSU on Thursday that Kunzweiler, Owasso police, the school district and the medical examiner's office "have failed Nex Benedict and failed us all."

The school district said it has provided counselors for students and said that, "Any notion that the district has ignored disciplinary action toward those involved is simply untrue." It called Benedict's death devastating. An after hours call to the district was not immediately returned.

While in the hospital for the injuries they sustained during the fight, according to body cam footage, Benedict told police that they poured water on a group of girls in the high school bathroom after they picked on them for how they laughed. The group then started beating Benedict to the ground until they "blacked out," they said.

The next day, Benedict was pronounced dead. The medical examiner's office found that they had died after taking a lethal mix of prescription and over-the-counter medication. The full autopsy report has not yet been publicly released.

Owasso police found brief notes written by Benedict that "appeared to be related to the suicide" and are an important part of their investigation, the district attorney said. The notes, which don't make mention of the fight or difficulties at school, Kunweiler said, are "a personal matter" for Benedict's family.

Benedict's case has sparked demonstrations by LGBTQ+ advocates and calls for bullying law reforms.

Suicide rates among transgender youth are disproportionately high compared to cisgender youth, as NPR previously reported. Trans youth report that the wave of anti-LGBTQ+ legislation around the country is a major contributor to negative impacts on their mental health.

[bobtheinquisitor]

I’m confused why the article mentions that bullying leading to a suicide is a felony, but then frames Nex’s interactions with the bullies as a singular event rather than part of a pattern? Is it because the singular event is murky and much easier to dismiss?