Haighus
Ye Olde King of OT
Posts: 858
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Post by Haighus on Oct 15, 2023 13:07:45 GMT -5
Please move this here, its clogging up the UK politics thread.
Please.
I'll add relevant quotes below.
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Haighus
Ye Olde King of OT
Posts: 858
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Post by Haighus on Oct 15, 2023 13:08:23 GMT -5
Most people who are capable of change do not make a dozen posts full of bigotry, aggressively defending their views and insisting it's just what reality is. And lets be real, this forum isn't seeing very many new people. It's incredibly unlikely that it just happens to be someone with the same writing style, the same posting style, and the same views as grog. Someone who starts off with a racist outlook is of course going to express racist opinions and they are also going to be defensive at first, particularly if they are approached the way many members here would approach them ("just ban them!"). It's extremely common for someone who came from a racist background to justify it by saying that their opinions are just reflecting reality. And yes, I agree it's likely it's the same person, but we don't know for sure and this forum does occasionally get new members. anonymous internet forums are not exactly the best place to try and deradicalize someone like grog, so can we stop pretending it's within the ability or capacity of this forum? I disagree. If anonymous forums can radicalize people, they can also deradicalize people. Sure, but change for bigots happens most commonly when they have to actually interact with the people they hate face to face, or when they're in a position of vulnerability. That is not this forum, and it's crazy to assume it is. It's part of why RiTide's "experiment" was a massive failure. Allowing bigots to keep acting like bigots will never get them to change. Plus, grog isn't leaving any room for a discussion or asking to be challenged, they're just here to spew shit, and they don't care if you agree or disagree with them. THey're not looking to change. Assuming they are means ignoring how they're acting because they're not defensive. They're aggressive. They were going all out to say racist and bigoted shit just to rile people up, not because they felt their ideas are under attack. They're not interested in changing and you can stop pretending they are. I disagree. If anonymous forums can radicalize people, they can also deradicalize people. Not unless those people are already looking to deradicalize basically. You clearly don't understand the process of radicalization or deradicalization or you'd say something beyond "nuh uh, I think they can!" Here is a decent overview, please take a moment to compare what this forum offers to what people said helped them deradicalize.
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Post by Least censored on the planet! on Oct 15, 2023 14:22:20 GMT -5
None of you know who would or wouldn't want a second chance because as soon as someone posts something you find objectionable, the first step is banning them. No. That's just not true. You are conflating this obvious troll with someone who would have said something "objectionable" but who doesn't make his mission to say as many inflammatory statement as possible. You don't care if anything is actually done to address it as long as someone else keeps you from being exposed to it. You don't actually want to do anything about it, because it's not your responsibility. Try this replacing racism doctor with medical doctor? The fact I'm not trying to cure people means I don't care about people being cured? The fact I'm not going around telling people how to meditate themselves is just because "is not my responsibility" and not because I'm clearly not qualified to do it and would end up doing more harm than good? Aside from that, someone expressing their opinion in the context of a debate doesn't turn the debate into a lecture. Can you clarify what you mean with that part? Yes. If they are racist but cannot state their racist ideas, but you can say your anti-racist idea, then you can defend your ideas and they can not, so it's not a debate and it's entirely one sided. Last time I say someone as optimistic and certain that "if people only just talk to each other, they will get along fine and bad ideas will disappear", be ended up film of bitterness and resentment, telling us how we are the last censored people in the planet.
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skyth
OT Cowboy
Posts: 324
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Post by skyth on Oct 15, 2023 14:48:20 GMT -5
Also as a point, telling off and banning racists tells other people that racism is not a socially acceptable thing. It may not do anything for the idiot, but it affects the silent readers.
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Post by Hordini on Oct 15, 2023 14:56:03 GMT -5
Also as a point, telling off and banning racists tells other people that racism is not a socially acceptable thing. It may not do anything for the idiot, but it affects the silent readers. I agree, but telling off and banning are two different things.
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Post by Hordini on Oct 15, 2023 15:03:48 GMT -5
None of you know who would or wouldn't want a second chance because as soon as someone posts something you find objectionable, the first step is banning them. No. That's just not true. You are conflating this obvious troll with someone who would have said something "objectionable" but who doesn't make his mission to say as many inflammatory statement as possible. You don't care if anything is actually done to address it as long as someone else keeps you from being exposed to it. You don't actually want to do anything about it, because it's not your responsibility. Try this replacing racism doctor with medical doctor? The fact I'm not trying to cure people means I don't care about people being cured? The fact I'm not going around telling people how to meditate themselves is just because "is not my responsibility" and not because I'm clearly not qualified to do it and would end up doing more harm than good? Aside from that, someone expressing their opinion in the context of a debate doesn't turn the debate into a lecture. Can you clarify what you mean with that part? Yes. If they are racist but cannot state their racist ideas, but you can say your anti-racist idea, then you can defend your ideas and they can not, so it's not a debate and it's entirely one sided. Last time I say someone as optimistic and certain that "if people only just talk to each other, they will get along fine and bad ideas will disappear", be ended up film of bitterness and resentment, telling us how we are the last censored people in the planet. The problem with the comparison with a medical doctor is that there is no such thing as a racism doctor and it doesn't take a doctoral degree (or any other qualification) to try to do something about racism. The idea that it does, that it always has to be someone else who does something about it, is part of the reason why it continues to spread. How do you know you'd do more harm than good? How do you know just banning someone isn't doing more harm than good? This is similar to the line of thinking that causes the bystander effect. "I don't need to do something because it's not my responsibility. Someone else will do something." To be clear, I don't actually think you don't care about racism as long as you aren't exposed to it. I'm just using this as an example of the least charitable interpretation of your post possible as an illustration of why interpreting posts that way (especially here) is problematic. Your last sentence isn't clear to me. What are you referring to in your last sentence? RiTides? I'm not saying if people only talk to each other, they will get along fine and bad ideas will disappear. However, the opposite is definitely true. If people don't talk to each other, bad ideas will absolutely spread and division will increase.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Oct 15, 2023 15:20:15 GMT -5
The issue is you don't know what you're doing, and just like with practicing medicine, if you have no idea what you're doing, you're probably gonna end up hurting people. It doesn't take a degree in psychology or sociology to figure out that letting bigots post essentially unmoderated will never help them change.
It's not as simple as you think it is, and I suspect it takes a lot more work than you're willing to put it. Deradicalizing people requires both their willingness to change and a lot of time and effort to help them change. Are you willing to personally guide them on their journey? I mean being their rock, their touchstone they can message at any time, someone who will support them and help overcome their biases in regular social interactions. I highly doubt it, and even if you are they're not willing.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Oct 15, 2023 15:22:38 GMT -5
anonymous internet forums are not exactly the best place to try and deradicalize someone like grog, so can we stop pretending it's within the ability or capacity of this forum? Just wanted to respond to this. After 9/11, my wife and I spent a lot of time watching Fox, getting into some pretty dark places. While racism was never a part of it, I think it’s fair to say we were at least partially radicalized. Besides cutting off the constant stream of one viewpoint, the thing that helped us out the most was hearing other viewpoints and seeing discussions …mostly on Internet forums. Internet forums are often a good place to find out what other views exist and where one can read unbiased sources of information.
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Post by Hordini on Oct 15, 2023 15:23:44 GMT -5
The issue is you don't know what you're doing, and just like with practicing medicine, if you have no idea what you're doing, you're probably gonna end up hurting people. Except that doing something about racism isn't like practicing medicine. It doesn't take a doctoral degree or special qualifications, and the level of potential harm if you make a mistake isn't nearly as drastic.
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Post by Hordini on Oct 15, 2023 15:28:06 GMT -5
anonymous internet forums are not exactly the best place to try and deradicalize someone like grog, so can we stop pretending it's within the ability or capacity of this forum? Just wanted to respond to this. After 9/11, my wife and I spent a lot of time watching Fox, getting into some pretty dark places. While racism was never a part of it, I think it’s fair to say we were at least partially radicalized. Besides cutting off the constant stream of one viewpoint, the thing that helped us out the most was hearing other viewpoints and seeing discussions …mostly on Internet forums. Internet forums are often a good place to find out what other views exist and where one can read unbiased sources of information. Yes. 100%. Thank you for sharing your personal experience bobtheinquisitor. The internet is full of information and more and more people get more and more social interaction via the internet. The idea that a forum can't be a place to help deradicalize people seems very odd to me. If someone is born and raised in a radicalized environment, an internet forum might be the only chance of getting information and exposure to ideas that may deradicalize them that they have.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Oct 15, 2023 15:29:55 GMT -5
The issue is you don't know what you're doing, and just like with practicing medicine, if you have no idea what you're doing, you're probably gonna end up hurting people. Except that doing something about racism isn't like practicing medicine. It doesn't take a doctoral degree or special qualifications, and the level of potential harm if you make a mistake isn't nearly as drastic. Is it? We've seen a lot of racists exercising their 2nd amendment rights lately. The level of potential harm where they snap and go kill someone. When dealing with people like that, I don't think it's fair to say there's little or no risk.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Oct 15, 2023 15:32:21 GMT -5
Just wanted to respond to this. After 9/11, my wife and I spent a lot of time watching Fox, getting into some pretty dark places. While racism was never a part of it, I think it’s fair to say we were at least partially radicalized. Besides cutting off the constant stream of one viewpoint, the thing that helped us out the most was hearing other viewpoints and seeing discussions …mostly on Internet forums. Internet forums are often a good place to find out what other views exist and where one can read unbiased sources of information. Yes. 100%. Thank you for sharing your personal experience bobtheinquisitor. The internet is full of information and more and more people get more and more social interaction via the internet. The idea that a forum can't be a place to help deradicalize people seems very odd to me. If someone is born and raised in a radicalized environment, an internet forum might be the only chance of getting information and exposure to ideas that may deradicalize them that they have. A single anecdote is not proof that this will work, and you keep ignoring the fact that THEY DON'T WANT TO CHANGE. Grog is more than happy to keep spouting their racist shit. Bob and his wife are largely the exception, not the rule. Most deradicalization seems to happen through personal connections with people they are bigoted against. Getting out and directly interacting with the groups of people they hate on a personal level, not filtered through some text on a website.
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Post by Hordini on Oct 15, 2023 15:38:39 GMT -5
Except that doing something about racism isn't like practicing medicine. It doesn't take a doctoral degree or special qualifications, and the level of potential harm if you make a mistake isn't nearly as drastic. Is it? We've seen a lot of racists exercising their 2nd amendment rights lately. The level of potential harm where they snap and go kill someone. When dealing with people like that, I don't think it's fair to say there's little or no risk. You don't have to wait until the point that they are on the verge of snapping to do something about it. The risk increases the longer you wait. That level of risk just means it's even more important to do something about it sooner, rather than wait for someone else to do something. That's like watching someone bleed out and waiting until they are on the verge of death to do something because you're not a medical doctor and they might die. That's true, but they're not at more risk of dying now because you're not a medical doctor, they're at more risk of dying now because you didn't do anything to help sooner.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Oct 15, 2023 15:40:41 GMT -5
Change is painful and difficult. Most people don’t change because they always wanted to. Sometimes it’s enough to let him know his worldview is based on lies to get things moving, ever so slowly, in his head.
Or he could just stay a complete bigot for the rest of his life. Never can tell in advance.
Is there any research into the link between troll posting (as opposed to fostering in isolated hate groups) and violence? If getting called a shithead bigot on forums is proven to be more likely to trigger a spree shooting, I’d appreciate a heads up.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Oct 15, 2023 15:45:29 GMT -5
Is it? We've seen a lot of racists exercising their 2nd amendment rights lately. The level of potential harm where they snap and go kill someone. When dealing with people like that, I don't think it's fair to say there's little or no risk. You don't have to wait until the point that they are on the verge of snapping to do something about it. The risk increases the longer you wait. That level of risk just means it's even more important to do something about it sooner, rather than wait for someone else to do something. That's like watching someone bleed out and waiting until they are on the verge of death to do something because you're not a medical doctor and they might die. That's true, but they're not at more risk of dying now because you're not a medical doctor, they're at more risk of dying now because you didn't do anything to help sooner. I guess you missed what I was saying. I'm saying you might be the person who tips them over, not pulls them back. You might think you're helping them when all you're doing is riling them up. My point is, this forum really isn't well set up to handle this type of thing and deradicalize people. First off, you'd need stricter moderation to actually make them engage in an honest and good-faith manner in examining their own biases and reasons for believing what they do which... you can't really do. That has to come from them. And again, this is ignoring the fact that grog doesn't want to change. They're happy being the racist little troll they are. Pretending otherwise is foolish.
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