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Post by Hordini on Oct 15, 2023 15:46:13 GMT -5
Yes. 100%. Thank you for sharing your personal experience bobtheinquisitor. The internet is full of information and more and more people get more and more social interaction via the internet. The idea that a forum can't be a place to help deradicalize people seems very odd to me. If someone is born and raised in a radicalized environment, an internet forum might be the only chance of getting information and exposure to ideas that may deradicalize them that they have. A single anecdote is not proof that this will work, and you keep ignoring the fact that THEY DON'T WANT TO CHANGE. Grog is more than happy to keep spouting their racist shit. Bob and his wife are largely the exception, not the rule. Most deradicalization seems to happen through personal connections with people they are bigoted against. Getting out and directly interacting with the groups of people they hate on a personal level, not filtered through some text on a website. A single anecdote is proof that it can work. If you need mountains of data to prove something can work before making an attempt or coming up with a plan, you will be waiting so long that whatever you do will be irrelevant at that point. I agree that most deradicalization requires personal connections. People can absolutely make personal connections with people on a forum. You seem to not do this because you are rude and treat others like crap on forums, but not everyone is like this.
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Post by Hordini on Oct 15, 2023 15:48:30 GMT -5
Change is painful and difficult. Most people don’t change because they always wanted to. Sometimes it’s enough to let him know his worldview is based on lies to get things moving, ever so slowly, in his head. Or he could just stay a complete bigot for the rest of his life. Never can tell in advance. Is there any research into the link between troll posting (as opposed to fostering in isolated hate groups) and violence? If getting called a shithead bigot on forums is proven to be more likely to trigger a spree shooting, I’d appreciate a heads up. There certainly appears to be a link to violence and radicalization and being bullied and isolated.
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Post by Hordini on Oct 15, 2023 15:52:22 GMT -5
You don't have to wait until the point that they are on the verge of snapping to do something about it. The risk increases the longer you wait. That level of risk just means it's even more important to do something about it sooner, rather than wait for someone else to do something. That's like watching someone bleed out and waiting until they are on the verge of death to do something because you're not a medical doctor and they might die. That's true, but they're not at more risk of dying now because you're not a medical doctor, they're at more risk of dying now because you didn't do anything to help sooner. I guess you missed what I was saying. I'm saying you might be the person who tips them over, not pulls them back. You might think you're helping them when all you're doing is riling them up. My point is, this forum really isn't well set up to handle this type of thing and deradicalize people. First off, you'd need stricter moderation to actually make them engage in an honest and good-faith manner in examining their own biases and reasons for believing what they do which... you can't really do. That has to come from them. And again, this is ignoring the fact that grog doesn't want to change. They're happy being the racist little troll they are. Pretending otherwise is foolish. That seems extremely unlikely. I've never heard of anyone getting tipped over the edge because more people were engaging with them. Things like isolation and bullying seem to be larger factors. And most people don't want to change until they do. That's part of deradicalization. Helping to get people to the point where they want to change.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Oct 15, 2023 16:00:21 GMT -5
Change is painful and difficult. Most people don’t change because they always wanted to. Sometimes it’s enough to let him know his worldview is based on lies to get things moving, ever so slowly, in his head. Or he could just stay a complete bigot for the rest of his life. Never can tell in advance. I think we can pretty safely say it's the latter given the fact that grog believes the tories aren't very right-wing (or aren't right-wing enough). Is there any research into the link between troll posting (as opposed to fostering in isolated hate groups) and violence? If getting called a shithead bigot on forums is proven to be more likely to trigger a spree shooting, I’d appreciate a heads up. I can't really find studies on it, most search results get wiped out by more general mass shooting statistics. It's less about being called a shithead bigot (imo) and more that they come, have an extended interaction where they get to later gloat about how they owned the libs and made them mad or whatever which further radicalizes them instead of deradicalizes them. Most deradicalization doesn't happen because someone stumbled across an internet forum. RAND, for example suggests: Note that the first step in this suggestion is presenting the info the right info at the right time, usually a life-changing event. Grog is not at that stage, and this forum doesn't really provide that. And I don't think there's proof one way or ther other, I'm willing to bet anyone who had a life-changing event that causes them to reconsider, even subconsciously, their biases would have that same reaction whether or not they visited an internet forum before it. I don't want to say with 100% certainty that 9/11 was the reason you deradicalized, but it happened before you started seeking out other viewpoints. The forum was just one of any number of places you could have gone on your journey to deradicalization (from a not completely radicalized place already, not to downplay the journey or anything).
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Oct 15, 2023 16:04:22 GMT -5
A single anecdote is not proof that this will work, and you keep ignoring the fact that THEY DON'T WANT TO CHANGE. Grog is more than happy to keep spouting their racist shit. Bob and his wife are largely the exception, not the rule. Most deradicalization seems to happen through personal connections with people they are bigoted against. Getting out and directly interacting with the groups of people they hate on a personal level, not filtered through some text on a website. A single anecdote is proof that it can work. If you need mountains of data to prove something can work before making an attempt or coming up with a plan, you will be waiting so long that whatever you do will be irrelevant at that point. I agree that most deradicalization requires personal connections. People can absolutely make personal connections with people on a forum. You seem to not do this because you are rude and treat others like crap on forums, but not everyone is like this. A single anecdote in which a major life-changing event happened first, followed by seeking out other view points. It didn't start with the forum. And keep in mind, someone like grog views everyone here as enemies first, people last. Grog isn't looking to make friends or connections which you seem to be missing. Grog is just here to stir the pot and try to rile people up... and you're enabling them by giving them a dozen chances. That's the key you seem to always ignore, people really only deradicalize when something happens to them that shakes their worldview up or shocks them on a deep personal level, not because someone was nice to them once on the internet. I have no issue with trying to help people who are genuinely on the cusp of change. But that isn't grog. That's what this has been about, not some hypothetical person who exists somewhere, but specifically grog and just permabanning them. Even places designed specifically to help people deradicalize would not allow grog there to stir the pot and rile everyone up. They wouldn't want them there undoing other progress and making things worse. Grog will drive away people looking to deradicalize so you're just actively shooting yourself in the foot.
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Post by bobtheinquisitor on Oct 15, 2023 16:05:37 GMT -5
9/11 is what caused us to radicalize, not deradicalize. We were pretty middle of the road for Berkeley—so fairly leftish—before the attack. There was no life incident I can think of that triggered deradicalization, other than moving to a place where we didn’t have cable/TV.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Oct 15, 2023 16:06:25 GMT -5
9/11 is what caused us to radicalize, not deradicalize. We were pretty middle of the road for Berkeley—so fairly leftish—before the attack. There was no life incident I can think of that triggered deradicalization, other than moving to a place where we didn’t have cable/TV. Oh sorry, I must have misread it then, I thought you said 9/11 was what caused you to seek out other view points. Regardless, I think the point RAND has stands, there was a life changing event and the right message at the right time radicalized you. And because that process got interrupted, you stopped getting radicalized. (But grog is already at the end of the process, not the start or middle of it) I'd also say a move could be a life-changing event since you're picking up your entire life and moving it.
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Post by Least censored on the planet! on Oct 15, 2023 16:07:58 GMT -5
How do you know just banning someone isn't doing more harm than good? Not "someone". Grog. He is trolling for attention, and the more you react to him, the more validation you give him, the more he is likely to continue trolling with ever more offensive statements. The correct answer is to ban him silently, remove all traces and not answer any of his posts. I'm just using this as an example of the least charitable interpretation of your post possible as an illustration of why interpreting posts that way (especially here) is problematic. It's not working, you are just showing that if you do that I have to explain more and better, which is fine
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Post by Hordini on Oct 15, 2023 16:09:34 GMT -5
A single anecdote is proof that it can work. If you need mountains of data to prove something can work before making an attempt or coming up with a plan, you will be waiting so long that whatever you do will be irrelevant at that point. I agree that most deradicalization requires personal connections. People can absolutely make personal connections with people on a forum. You seem to not do this because you are rude and treat others like crap on forums, but not everyone is like this. A single anecdote in which a major life-changing event happened first, followed by seeking out other view points. It didn't start with the forum. And keep in mind, someone like grog views everyone hear as enemies, not people. Grog isn't looking to make friends or connections which you seem to be missing. Grog is just here to stir the pot and try to rile people up... and you're enabling them by giving them a dozen chances. That's the key you seem to always ignore, people really only deradicalize when something happens to them that shakes their worldview up or shocks them on a deep personal level, not because someone was nice to them once on the internet. I'm not saying that the forum is going to trigger the life-changing event or start the deradicalization process (although it theoretically could). It can absolutely be a factor and a resource as part of the process. You don't know what else is going on in grog's life or what caused him to be this way or have the worldview he has. You clearly have no idea how much impact an act of kindness by the right person at the right time can have on somebody, since you seem bizarrely incapable of being kind to others (or at least, completely unwilling).
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Post by Hordini on Oct 15, 2023 16:13:20 GMT -5
Not "someone". Grog. He is trolling for attention, and the more you react to him, the more validation you give him, the more he is likely to continue trolling with ever more offensive statements. The correct answer is to ban him silently, remove all traces and not answer any of his posts. If not answering his posts is part of the answer, why do you guys keep reacting to his posts then? This forum gets way more reaction when he's posting than when he's not. How do you know he's trolling for attention and not just posting his opinion? Do you think he doesn't actually hold the views he's posting and just trying to rile people up? If someone posts an opinion that you find offensive, but they actually hold that opinion, that's not trolling. It's not working, you are just showing that if you do that I have to explain more and better, which is fine So you don't see an issue with it at all? Do you think we should continue to take the least charitable interpretation of all of our posts possible?
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Oct 15, 2023 16:17:12 GMT -5
A single anecdote in which a major life-changing event happened first, followed by seeking out other view points. It didn't start with the forum. And keep in mind, someone like grog views everyone hear as enemies, not people. Grog isn't looking to make friends or connections which you seem to be missing. Grog is just here to stir the pot and try to rile people up... and you're enabling them by giving them a dozen chances. That's the key you seem to always ignore, people really only deradicalize when something happens to them that shakes their worldview up or shocks them on a deep personal level, not because someone was nice to them once on the internet. I'm not saying that the forum is going to trigger the life-changing event or start the deradicalization process (although it theoretically could). It can absolutely be a factor and a resource as part of the process. You don't know what else is going on in grog's life or what caused him to be this way or have the worldview he has. You clearly have no idea how much impact an act of kindness by the right person at the right time can have on somebody, since you seem bizarrely incapable of being kind to others (or at least, completely unwilling). And neither do you. You're assumption that an "act of kindness" in the face of everything they've done to show who they are will somehow overshadow that is crazy. They've unabashedly spouted the most horrific and bigoted shit and then doubled down just to try and piss people off. They're not looking to change, and someone saying "hey, let's be nice to the bigot as long as the bigot stops using bigoted terms" isn't the act of kindness that will spark jack shit from them. So yeah, you can say I have no idea what's going on in their life, but neither do you. The difference is your trying to make up your own reality where they're just slightly misguided and the absolute tiniest act of "kindness" will show how snap them out of it despite that same act not working the previous 4 or 5 times. They didn't stop trolling here because they changed as a person, they stopped because they got bored. We stopped trying to poke holes in their posts, and instead just started alerting you so you could ban them. Instead of getting ~4-5 responses, they'd get one or two people responding with a couple of lines, and eventually, just one or two people saying "please ban them already," basically.
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Post by Hordini on Oct 15, 2023 16:20:42 GMT -5
I'm not saying that the forum is going to trigger the life-changing event or start the deradicalization process (although it theoretically could). It can absolutely be a factor and a resource as part of the process. You don't know what else is going on in grog's life or what caused him to be this way or have the worldview he has. You clearly have no idea how much impact an act of kindness by the right person at the right time can have on somebody, since you seem bizarrely incapable of being kind to others (or at least, completely unwilling). And neither do you. You're assumption that an "act of kindness" in the face of everything they've done to show who they are will somehow overshadow that is crazy. They've unabashedly spouted the most horrific and bigoted shit and then doubled down just to try and piss people off. They're not looking to change, and someone saying "hey, let's be nice to the bigot as long as the bigot stops using bigoted terms" isn't the act of kindness that will spark jack shit from them. You can say I have no idea what's going on in their life, but neither do you. The difference is your trying to make up your own reality where they're just slightly misguided and the absolute tiniest act of "kindness" will show how snap them out of it despite that same act not working the previous 4 or 5 times. They didn't stop trolling here because they changed as a person, they stopped because they got bored.That's not what I'm saying. It's not an all or nothing kind of thing and I'm not making up my own reality. I've never suggested they stopped trolling because they changed as a person. If they got bored, so be it. You are not going to bully someone into changing either. I know I don't know what's going on in their life. That's the whole point! The other part of it is, if you actually interact with someone with a modicum of kindness and respect, eventually you might get to know what is going on in their life and have some sort of positive impact. No, it's not a guarantee, but there's certainly a chance. It does happen.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Oct 15, 2023 16:26:18 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't think that's grog, at all. Even back on ETC all their posts where just bashing LGBT+ people, calling them pedophiles, disgusting, and so on with dog whistles so RiTides didn't ever have to take action against someone he hand recruited until the very end. They celebrated the closing of ETC as something like a victory against the leftist SJWs. They were never here for what you want, and never will be. They're already at the deep end of the extremism and it's gonna take a pretty major event to shake that up. This forum is not that major event.
Remember, we're not discussing some random hypothetical person. We're discussing grog, and all their actions. They're only here to troll and by letting them do it over and over you're showing them there are no reprecussions because they'll always get to make a new account and then at least two racist tirades.
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Post by Hordini on Oct 15, 2023 16:29:37 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't think that's grog, at all. Even back on ETC all their posts where just bashing LGBT+ people, calling them pedophiles, disgusting, and so on with dog whistles so RiTides didn't ever have to take action against someone he hand recruited until the very end. They celebrated the closing of ETC as something like a victory against the leftist SJWs. They were never here for what you want, and never will be. They're already at the deep end of the extremism and it's gonna take a pretty major event to shake that up. This forum is not that major event. Remember, we're not discussing some random hypothetical person. We're discussing grog, and all their actions. They're only here to troll and by letting them do it over and over you're showing them there are no reprecussions because they'll always get to make a new account and then at least two racist tirades. That's not showing that there are no repercussions and we don't know that it's him, we just suspect it is. Giving him a warning and then banning him is not meaningfully different than him always being able to make a new account and make at least one racist tirade, which we don't really have a mechanism to prevent. If we did, I would have used it already.
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Oct 15, 2023 16:31:27 GMT -5
It actually is because it's one more hoop they have to jump through every time to do it. It means it's more and more annoying for them everytime, especially if you delete all their posts so there's no reaction that they want.
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