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Post by kostka malpa on Sept 17, 2008 21:33:41 GMT -5
The current economic crisis runs both ways. The entire housing market collapse that started the ball rolling was started in the Carter administration with the Community Reinvestment Act. For some reason forcing banks and lenders give out loans that will be defaulted on in the name of "Community Reinvest", the Clinton administration strengthened this to the point were community activist were able to strong arm additional exemptions creating these so called "predatory lenders" to the tune of almost a trillion dollars. Someone has to eat all of this and it is going to be everyone who pays taxes.
On the other side, starting in the Clinton administration the Republicans (Democrats too) thought it would be a great idea to deregulate everything. In 2004 Bush passed another really big deregulation that meant no one was watching what Wall Street was doing. So we have wild speculation and other chicanery disguising the big ugly debt that has been building for 31 years and both sides act like shocked fucktards screaming it is the other sides fault.
The third problem is the current set of Americans who live well beyond their means. You cannot blame either party for people who run up $50K in debt with no way to pay it, people who take second or third mortgages to buy a third car, or all the other mind numbingly stupid things people do. I firmly believe if you are stupid enough to do any of those things you should be hung by their own petard. To think at one time being a bankrupt was a shameful thing, now it is like finding out someone drinks Pepsi instead of Coke. It also underlines a more worrying problem in America, the fact no one takes responsibility for anything. No one held a gun to their head and forced them to spend beyond their means why should I be coerced into correcting their mistakes because they are indolent and stupid.
Solution wise, Obama would kill the economy now when I say that instead of trying to glide it in he will turn the nose down and crash it into the ground. he would do this by raising taxes on businesses and investors giving money to people who do not pay taxes, and not cutting any spending and proposing ridiculous amounts of spending on entitlements. He also wants to create an economic Berlin wall to punish companies that leave due to our abhorrence high taxes. Of course the vacuous mantra about taxing Oil Companies for "Excessive Profits" and using it to pay for X and Y is garbage of course most people do not understand that higher taxes on business are simply passed on to the consumer.
McCain is not going to do to much, he will cut some corporate taxes and cut earmarks (congress will steam roll them through) he will not cut any spending, but he also does not have any gigantic social programs that will have to be run on IOU's. The economy will still have to go down to purge itself but it will be a softer landing. I would much rather try to survive financially than jump off the cliff like a lemming and hope there are enough bodies under me to cushion my fall.
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Post by Jester on Sept 17, 2008 21:42:40 GMT -5
QFMFT.
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Post by Hordini on Sept 17, 2008 21:44:24 GMT -5
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Post by McMMMNNNMMM on Sept 17, 2008 22:58:26 GMT -5
I guess my question is, lots of people are still blaming Bush and his presidency, but what has the Democrat Congress been doing this whole time to change things? Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, but I haven't seen a lot of positive things coming from their direction so far. It's easier to bitch than to be constructive. Personally, I think McCain will be the softer landing, but either way, it's gonna get a lot worse before it gets better. +1 to DM for some short, frank honesty.
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Post by kostka malpa on Sept 18, 2008 1:11:30 GMT -5
RANT
I hate the mother fucking media. They are fucking nattering about Britney Spears, tanning beds and Ryan O'Neal having father son meth session but I have yet to see any real coverage of a terrorist attack in Morelia the capital of Michoacán killing seven and injuring 100. Today is Mexico's independence day so it would be like some assholes lobbing grenades in Philadelphia on the 4th of July. They pay so little attention to our neighbor to the south most Americans have no idea how close they came to having Hugo Chávez Jr. resting on their lower border. Some of my relatives are scared to hang out in the Zocolo Square or even go visit public areas. But I guess the media is right Tanning Beds and Poor White Trash are more important.
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takedown275
Ye Olde King of OT
Too smart for his own damn good
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Posts: 674
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Post by takedown275 on Sept 18, 2008 2:15:11 GMT -5
The current economic crisis runs both ways. Someone has to eat all of this and it is going to be everyone who pays taxes. It also underlines a more worrying problem in America, the fact no one takes responsibility for anything. Agreed. he would do this by raising taxes on businesses and investors giving money to people who do not pay taxes, and not cutting any spending and proposing ridiculous amounts of spending on entitlements. I'm not entirely certain of this. Given that much of his Presidency is going to be judged by what he does in Iraq I'm fairly certain that an exit strategy will be a major priority. Not that this means he'll cut net spending. Rather it'll just be shifted into the domestic arena through his social programs. most people do not understand that higher taxes on business are simply passed on to the consumer. They are, but the exchange isn't perfectly uniform. The trick is taxing industries which have a relatively high price elasticity. McCain is not going to do to much, he will cut some corporate taxes and cut earmarks (congress will steam roll them through) he will not cut any spending, but he also does not have any gigantic social programs that will have to be run on IOU's. True enough, but the war is a massive cash hemorage that he is going to be reticent to close. Hell, he may even expand it if some of his more grandiose claims are to be taken seriously. Despite all that there is a part of me which wouldn't mind seeing McCain win. If the Dems lose this election they will be all but forced to massively restructure themselves, which can only be a good thing. Add in the fact that McCain is pretty much destined to a single term of office (by virtue of age and economic issues) and a depression which can be easily pinned to the Republicans. Sounds like an almost ideal climate for reform to me.
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Post by kostka malpa on Sept 18, 2008 2:55:14 GMT -5
I'm not entirely certain of this. Given that much of his Presidency is going to be judged by what he does in Iraq I'm fairly certain that an exit strategy will be a major priority. Not that this means he'll cut net spending. Rather it'll just be shifted into the domestic arena through his social programs. The exit has already been agreed on, that is why no one is talking about it. They will start pulling out in 2011 and be done by 2013 (unless the world is destroyed in December 2012). Neither candidate will cut spending, McCain may try but the congress will simply override him as they pay off political debts and bring home pork to the home crowd. Neither candidate has mentioned the national debt that is now 59 trillion dollars. The congress has done nothing, the media is silent on it and only old Storm Front poster boy Ron Paul says a damned thing about it. It is disgusting. I will stop now because I don't want to delve deeply into Keynesian economics and it's stupidity. They are, but the exchange isn't perfectly uniform. The trick is taxing industries which have a relatively high price elasticity. There is no elasticity, We have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world and the amount of burden put on small businesses is obscene. People are literally paying 70 cents of every dollar earned to make themselves tax compliant. Our elasticity is about the same as a 12 year old condom dipped in liquid nitrogen. If he wants any kind of serious growth he will need to slash corporate taxes and ease the burden on all those small business owners. That will never happen considering the amount of funds pouring in from tax lawyers to both sides until the system finally crashes. True enough, but the war is a massive cash hemorage that he is going to be reticent to close. Hell, he may even expand it if some of his more grandiose claims are to be taken seriously. I don't mind spending money on a Iraq war, we are going to be out of it soon enough now and we will end up having to (at some point) ward off Uncle Vlad from the Ukraine and Poland. There is also no way we will let Iran go nuclear (nU coo luhr for the people who pronounce like Chimpy) I do mind setting up a giant trillion dollar health care system that will fail automatically. believe it or not we have a highly funded public health care system called the VA. It sucks well beyond normal government abilities to make giant SNAFUs. The level of incompetence in the hospitals and other facilities is appalling. Then again 2/3 of most VA hospitals is taken up by bureaucrats rather than patients so it is hardly surprising. I would be for more regulation of insurers but that would mean the slop trough would be cut off to both sides so it will never happen. I honestly feel like I am Orwell's Benjamin just cynically nodding as the world falls apart.
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Post by Hordini on Sept 18, 2008 7:03:25 GMT -5
As long as we have boots on the ground anywhere, military spending is about the only thing I don't want to see cut. To do so would be ridiculously irresponsible. Going in half-assed in Iraq is what fucked us up in the first place.
I'm cool with cutting out the bureaucratic costs though, not that I think that's actually going to happen.
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ender502
Ye Olde King of OT
A cock-gobbling dick-hound
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Posts: 502
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Post by ender502 on Sept 18, 2008 8:08:45 GMT -5
The current economic crisis runs both ways. The entire housing market collapse that started the ball rolling was started in the Carter administration with the Community Reinvestment Act. For some reason forcing banks and lenders give out loans that will be defaulted on in the name of "Community Reinvest", the Clinton administration strengthened this to the point were community activist were able to strong arm additional exemptions creating these so called "predatory lenders" to the tune of almost a trillion dollars. Someone has to eat all of this and it is going to be everyone who pays taxes. On the other side, starting in the Clinton administration the Republicans (Democrats too) thought it would be a great idea to deregulate everything. In 2004 Bush passed another really big deregulation that meant no one was watching what Wall Street was doing. So we have wild speculation and other chicanery disguising the big ugly debt that has been building for 31 years and both sides act like shocked fucktards screaming it is the other sides fault. The third problem is the current set of Americans who live well beyond their means. You cannot blame either party for people who run up $50K in debt with no way to pay it, people who take second or third mortgages to buy a third car, or all the other mind numbingly stupid things people do. I firmly believe if you are stupid enough to do any of those things you should be hung by their own petard. To think at one time being a bankrupt was a shameful thing, now it is like finding out someone drinks Pepsi instead of Coke. It also underlines a more worrying problem in America, the fact no one takes responsibility for anything. No one held a gun to their head and forced them to spend beyond their means why should I be coerced into correcting their mistakes because they are indolent and stupid. Solution wise, Obama would kill the economy now when I say that instead of trying to glide it in he will turn the nose down and crash it into the ground. he would do this by raising taxes on businesses and investors giving money to people who do not pay taxes, and not cutting any spending and proposing ridiculous amounts of spending on entitlements. He also wants to create an economic Berlin wall to punish companies that leave due to our abhorrence high taxes. Of course the vacuous mantra about taxing Oil Companies for "Excessive Profits" and using it to pay for X and Y is garbage of course most people do not understand that higher taxes on business are simply passed on to the consumer. McCain is not going to do to much, he will cut some corporate taxes and cut earmarks (congress will steam roll them through) he will not cut any spending, but he also does not have any gigantic social programs that will have to be run on IOU's. The economy will still have to go down to purge itself but it will be a softer landing. I would much rather try to survive financially than jump off the cliff like a lemming and hope there are enough bodies under me to cushion my fall. That we can't stop people from being stupid is true... we can stop handing them credit though. The regs for the credit card companies started to loosen under reagan and have done nothing but get worse. The 80's revival that republicans often point to as the success of trickle down economics was predicated on access to cheap credit. The housing problem is just the lates iteration of that same basic idea... let the folks spend and it will help the economy. No, it doesn't. Why? Because spending without he creation of capital/services to support the spending ends up biting you in the ass. Say goodbye AIG. Say hello to a republican administration that is buying uyp the mortgage market. When did they become so interventionist? Right now no one is addressing the real cultural problems we are facing...over-indulgence and a complete denial of consequence. ender502
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Post by Hordini on Sept 18, 2008 8:38:29 GMT -5
Right now no one is addressing the real cultural problems we are facing...over-indulgence and a complete denial of consequence. Another quote for truth!
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Post by Megadarkalosaurchild on Sept 18, 2008 10:05:36 GMT -5
all of this boils down to stuff ive being saying for years. People are stupid, they need to be forced to do things. Choice breeds idiotic decisions by the masses, leading to the eventual decline of society. I think every country needs a dictator.
Darkchild
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Post by syaireba on Sept 18, 2008 11:27:08 GMT -5
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Post by kostka malpa on Sept 18, 2008 13:02:49 GMT -5
Right now no one is addressing the real cultural problems we are facing...over-indulgence and a complete denial of consequence. ender502 This is true, what is really sad is the only way they will learn any kind of fiscal discipline is if they are forced to sell pencils on the corner and eat dinner at a soup kitchen. I suppose I was lucky to have older parents who were not part of the baby boom and grewup during the depression. It made me cautious with my money. Now to take this completely off topic. No Pok! No Pok! No Pok!
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takedown275
Ye Olde King of OT
Too smart for his own damn good
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Posts: 674
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Post by takedown275 on Sept 18, 2008 13:10:46 GMT -5
Neither candidate has mentioned the national debt that is now 59 trillion dollars. The congress has done nothing, the media is silent on it and only old Storm Front poster boy Ron Paul says a damned thing about it. It is disgusting. 59 trillion? The highest I've ever heard quoted was 9.7 trillion with about 5.8 held by the public. There is no elasticity, We have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world and the amount of burden put on small businesses is obscene. People are literally paying 70 cents of every dollar earned to make themselves tax compliant. Our elasticity is about the same as a 12 year old condom dipped in liquid nitrogen. If he wants any kind of serious growth he will need to slash corporate taxes and ease the burden on all those small business owners. That will never happen considering the amount of funds pouring in from tax lawyers to both sides until the system finally crashes. The highest adjusted corporate tax in the country is 41.4% (in Iowa of all places). This affects companies making in excess of 18,333,333 dollars. Hardly small businesses. The real problem for them is that the dodges implemented into the system of corporate taxation are centered around large multinationals. These reduce the tax rate for them to something like 27%. To fix the corporate tax we need to adjust it, not slash it. Close loopholes and drop the rate at the lower end of the scale. Possibly slide the base tax up so that businesses only begin paying at 50,000 instead of at 0. I don't mind spending money on a Iraq war, we are going to be out of it soon enough now and we will end up having to (at some point) ward off Uncle Vlad from the Ukraine and Poland. There is also no way we will let Iran go nuclear (nU coo luhr for the people who pronounce like Chimpy) Iraq is a waste of money. In FY2007 our budget for Iraq $4,988/Iraqi; triple their per capita GDP. We may as well have bribed them. Uncle Vlad is troublesome, but he has his limits, and I'm sure the EU would have something significant to say about an invasion of the Ukraine. Let alone a member state like Poland. As far as a nuclear Iran, I really could care less. They are the defacto regional hegemon, nukes will just solidify that position.
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ender502
Ye Olde King of OT
A cock-gobbling dick-hound
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Posts: 502
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Post by ender502 on Sept 18, 2008 20:24:06 GMT -5
Right now no one is addressing the real cultural problems we are facing...over-indulgence and a complete denial of consequence. ender502 This is true, what is really sad is the only way they will learn any kind of fiscal discipline is if they are forced to sell pencils on the corner and eat dinner at a soup kitchen. I suppose I was lucky to have older parents who were not part of the baby boom and grewup during the depression. It made me cautious with my money. Now to take this completely off topic. No Pok! No Pok! No Pok!And big daddy government won't let that happen. They keep rescuing us when we don't need to and just prolonging the cycle of fucktardliness. Consider the current mortgage crisis..... The govt wont let the companies fail. They essentially reward the bad behavior by cleaning up the mess. Maybe if Countrywide and a few others actually fail then the market will self-correct. Big daddy needs to learn to allow the free-market to be free. Isn't that what the republicans are supposed to be believe in? If you want less govt and fewer taxes vote ron paul. ender502
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