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Post by Haighus on Nov 7, 2024 12:43:14 GMT -5
The question is if going left is a viable electoral strategy for the Democrats? Possibly, but as so many voters vote on feelings, what does an appealing platform matter? As for policy, Clinton was a policy monster and still lost to the guy just making stuff up. Would a straight white guy have won where Harris did not? I think the policy needs to be framed as feelings, and it can be. Trump is good at it, but people on the left can be too. Arguably some of this is what got Biden elected in 2020. There is an alternate timeline where the DNC didn't stitch up Sanders in 2016, he had a good chance at beating Trump and taking the USA in a different direction. |
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skyth
OT Cowboy
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Post by skyth on Nov 7, 2024 12:49:46 GMT -5
The question is if going left is a viable electoral strategy for the Democrats? Possibly, but as so many voters vote on feelings, what does an appealing platform matter? As for policy, Clinton was a policy monster and still lost to the guy just making stuff up. The problem is that I'm not sure what the solution could be to the endless lies that the has basically defined the Republican party at this point. Democrats try to be the adults in the room and do things based on factual data (for the most part). Also, hypocrisy matters to Democrats (part of being the adult in the room) and Republicans couldn't care less. The problem is it takes much more effort to repudiate lies and get people to understand the real situation than it does to constantly spout lies about things. Plus it's part of the Republican modius operendi to cause suffering and then blame that suffering on someone else. Tank the economy then blame the Democrats or immigrants. Cause the government to shut down/screw up/be inefficient and then say that government is bad. Give the ultra-rich a huge tax break and then blame runaway spending for the deficit. The list goes on and on. People that are suffering often want someone/something to lash out at. I see that with my wife all the time. She's in a lot of pain due to many issues and sometimes she'll lash out at me because of the pain. I just have to remind her that I'm there trying to help her and she settles down, but taken to a macro level, that is hard to do. Especially when you have people in power that are trying to inflict more pain to get people to lash out. |
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Post by Haighus on Nov 7, 2024 12:58:02 GMT -5
Eh, I think that line of thinking is precisely the issue. The whole position is reactionary, and lets the Republicans set the agenda. The Democrats are too busy politely refuting some culture war shit the Republicans crapped out, meanwhile the Republicans get on with laying out their agenda on favourable ground.
The Democrats need to stop getting drawn into this and lay out their vision for the country with actual, tangible policies. It obviously won't reach everyone, there are increasingly siloed media ecosystems, but it will help.
We saw a great example of this in the UK with Mick Lynch. He is a trade union leader and everytime he appeared on TV during some major strike action he completely refused to be drawn, said what he needed to say, and absolutely destroyed the prevailing conservative narratives on strikes and frankly helped shift the general public in favour of unions.
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Post by Haighus on Nov 7, 2024 13:09:09 GMT -5
To be clear, I don't think this is easy, and it is particularly hard for the left as the media is particularly hostile to the left. But it is possible and the left needs communicatirs who are capable of this to be at the forefront.
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Post by Disciple of Fate on Nov 7, 2024 13:15:06 GMT -5
The question is if going left is a viable electoral strategy for the Democrats? Possibly, but as so many voters vote on feelings, what does an appealing platform matter? As for policy, Clinton was a policy monster and still lost to the guy just making stuff up. Would a straight white guy have won where Harris did not? I think the policy needs to be framed as feelings, and it can be. Trump is good at it, but people on the left can be too. Arguably some of this is what got Biden elected in 2020. There is an alternate timeline where the DNC didn't stitch up Sanders in 2016, he had a good chance at beating Trump and taking the USA in a different direction. But did Biden get elected on policy? Was that voter gap between him and Harris really based on policy? She would have been basically a continuation of him, that gap is all feelings. As for Sanders, it's nice to fantasize, but he might have also lost because of the EC. |
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skyth
OT Cowboy
Posts: 487
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Post by skyth on Nov 7, 2024 13:15:22 GMT -5
Another problem is that the antics on the right attract more 'clicks' and media attention, and actual policies and being an adult are boring/mundane so they don't get the media attention. Thus the media will concentrate on the weird stuff as it will engage more traffic thus more money for them.
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Post by Hordini on Nov 7, 2024 13:27:27 GMT -5
Well, figured I'd check back in.jisy to see what a shit show it is, and I'm not disappointed. Everyone else has clowned on whem- sorry, despic, enough that I'm not gonna bother, but I do want to say one thing before I leave again, hopefully. Hordini, for what it's worth... You're part of the problem. By pretending he holds valid opinions and positions, you're helping normalize those opinions by giving him a platform. Not all opinions are equal, especially not uninformed bigoted ones like despic is spewing. Do the right thing for once instead of giving people an endless amount of chances. You know who despic is, you know who grey is, and they're not gonna change. All you're doing is giving them a platform to troll others on. Is giving bigots a platform really that important to you? Is the hatred of other people we see from the right wing here worth it to you? Do you really believe anyone has had a productive discussion with despic, or gets anything out of interacting with them? Who's "despic?" You're absolutely out of your mind if your take away is that giving bigots a platform "is really that important" to me. You should take a look in the mirror. You haven't done anything to make any discussion you've ever participated in better, and most of the time you actively, and purposely, make things worse. Based on this post, that doesn't seem like it's changed since you've been gone. Do you think anyone gets anything out of interacting with you? Do you think anyone has had a productive discussion with you? If you're not interested in changing that, feel free to leave again. You might try fixing yourself before you come back here to start telling others what you think their problem is again. |
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 7, 2024 13:36:54 GMT -5
You haven't exactly made things better by letting shitbags like despic post fap over and over either, or letting others= troll for years.
I mean, that's part of why I left.
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Post by herzlos on Nov 7, 2024 13:43:03 GMT -5
I don’t think it was out of order. Uncouth, sure. But factually accurate. It doesn’t matter who provided them, because the user bought it/smoked it - a choice and a matter of risk management purely their own, even if it was someone else passing the Dutchy by the left hand side. And with street drugs? That’s a well known risk. I can understand Whembly’s upset (if the story is true and not simply plucked from the Far Right Gobshites Big Book Of Conveniently Racist Lies) at the death. But shaking one’s fist uttering “Mexicaaaaaaans” misses the point entirely. Because its suggesting the sole source of illegal drugs is Mexico, which is bollocks. And nobody, absolutely nobody, is increasing the potency of their filth At No Extra Charge. Let alone with enough that a single joint is going to fucking kill you (outside of allergic reaction) I agree with you, but I don't think saying "but I thought the Republicans were the party of personal responsibility? He fucked around with drugs and found out. Soz," shortly after someone who is grieving shares a personal experience is particularly productive or likely to be convincing to that person. It's also pretty unkind, frankly. The only reason this is different to what we're seeing from Republicans on pretty much every comparable occasion is that he was far more polite. He didn't use any slurs either. |
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Post by herzlos on Nov 7, 2024 13:43:28 GMT -5
It is, but it's also the view of the party that's about to control the entire US Government, so it's arguably a mainstream and acceptable opinion now.
You can certainly make the argument that it's mainstream, but that doesn't make it acceptable.
I absolutely agree that it shouldn't be acceptable, but according to US voters, it is now.
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Post by whembly on Nov 7, 2024 13:43:58 GMT -5
Well, figured I'd check back in.jisy to see what a shit show it is, and I'm not disappointed. Everyone else has clowned on whem- sorry, despic, enough that I'm not gonna bother, but I do want to say one thing before I leave again, hopefully. Hordini, for what it's worth... You're part of the problem. By pretending he holds valid opinions and positions, you're helping normalize those opinions by giving him a platform. Not all opinions are equal, especially not uninformed bigoted ones like despic is spewing. Do the right thing for once instead of giving people an endless amount of chances. You know who despic is, you know who grey is, and they're not gonna change. All you're doing is giving them a platform to troll others on. Is giving bigots a platform really that important to you? Is the hatred of other people we see from the right wing here worth it to you? Do you really believe anyone has had a productive discussion with despic, or gets anything out of interacting with them? Mod Edit - whembly will you knock it off please? Give me a freaking break. |
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Post by herzlos on Nov 7, 2024 13:49:57 GMT -5
I think there needs to be a clear distinction between "cross the border illegally and simply claim asylum" and "crossing the border for asylum". There are indeed many individuals who cross illegally and claim asylum when they are in actuality here for economic/simple relocation purposes. Claiming asylum is just a way to create a beachhead for them. Under international law (which in this case the US is a signatory of, unusually), there is no such thing as crossing the border illegally to claim asylum. Whatever method is used to cross becomes legal the moment asylum is claimed. If the asylum is rejected and the individual has no other legal right to enter, then they can be deported or what not as per local laws on border control. The best solution to refugees is to fund the processing services well so that inelegible claimants can be rejected swiftly. That is generally the cheapest option for managing this, and has the upside of treating the legimate claims more humanely as they get accepted quicker too. Storing large numbers of claimants in what amounts to prisons is far more expensive and degrading. That's obviously the logical answer. It saves money, shores up the workforce issues, and remove the failed applicants. But it would look like it was an open door to migrants to the people who like to whip up outrage amongst the uninformed and be political suicide. The immigration being horrible is deliberate to make it look like they are making a tough stance and pretend that it's a deterrent. No-one seeking asylum is going to be deterred by a prison stay. |
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Post by Emblematic Wolfblade on Nov 7, 2024 13:50:23 GMT -5
Well, figured I'd check back in.jisy to see what a shit show it is, and I'm not disappointed. Everyone else has clowned on whem- sorry, despic, enough that I'm not gonna bother, but I do want to say one thing before I leave again, hopefully. Hordini, for what it's worth... You're part of the problem. By pretending he holds valid opinions and positions, you're helping normalize those opinions by giving him a platform. Not all opinions are equal, especially not uninformed bigoted ones like despic is spewing. Do the right thing for once instead of giving people an endless amount of chances. You know who despic is, you know who grey is, and they're not gonna change. All you're doing is giving them a platform to troll others on. Is giving bigots a platform really that important to you? Is the hatred of other people we see from the right wing here worth it to you? Do you really believe anyone has had a productive discussion with despic, or gets anything out of interacting with them? Oh, the neighborhood pedo comes back. Oh please, you literally voted for more than one, spare me your bullshit. |
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Post by Hordini on Nov 7, 2024 13:51:08 GMT -5
You haven't exactly made things better by letting shitbags like despic post fap over and over either, or troll for years. I mean, that's part of why I left. Who is "despic?" You do know what this place is, right? It's not Dakka or ETC. If you haven't figured it out yet, I'm not going to just ban people based on your preference of silencing everyone who disagrees with you or ruffles your feathers a bit too much. I've banned quite a few members who were way out of line here. You've treated whembly despicably for years. You've trolled him and others for years. That doesn't excuse him, but based on that criteria you're just as worthy of a ban as he is, if not more so. Posting "fap" a few times, while certainly not appropriate or helpful, pales in comparison to your years of deliberately toxic behavior. Take a look in the mirror before you start accusing others of being "part of the problem." If you're not willing or able to do that, feel free to leave again. |
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Post by herzlos on Nov 7, 2024 13:52:48 GMT -5
Well, figured I'd check back in.jisy to see what a shit show it is, and I'm not disappointed. Everyone else has clowned on whem- sorry, despic, enough that I'm not gonna bother, but I do want to say one thing before I leave again, hopefully. Hordini, for what it's worth... You're part of the problem. By pretending he holds valid opinions and positions, you're helping normalize those opinions by giving him a platform. Not all opinions are equal, especially not uninformed bigoted ones like despic is spewing. Do the right thing for once instead of giving people an endless amount of chances. You know who despic is, you know who grey is, and they're not gonna change. All you're doing is giving them a platform to troll others on. Is giving bigots a platform really that important to you? Is the hatred of other people we see from the right wing here worth it to you? Do you really believe anyone has had a productive discussion with despic, or gets anything out of interacting with them? Oh, the neighborhood pedo comes back. , why is he even still here? |
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